female ready to lay??

[danielle609]

I have a previous thread about breeding my female panther, and now I belive she might lay soon. I am a bit confused though because it seems too early. Today would either be day 20 or 18 (it depends on which breeding session produced the eggs, although I would guess 18) She has already decreased her eating, is still drinking, and has been digging holes. Is this normal so soon??most people say their females layed after 25-30 days, mine is only at 18. Other than that she is fine except for the fact that sometimes she is at the bottom of the cage where her lay boxes arn't. I don't want to pick her up and stress her out so should I just leave her?(she can still climb, I have seen her at the floor, and then up at the top latter in the day) She currently has 2 seperate lay boxes one is a plastic shoe box about 8 in deep with a sand potting soil mix and the other is a planter a little over a foot tall filled with a cocconut fiber soil mix. So far she has only been digging in the 1st box mentioned. I have blankets over her cage and I only go into the room a couple times. I am starting to get nervous seeing as this is hers and my first time. She isn't extremely large which makes me happy because I didn't want her to lay a ton of eggs her first time.

Sorry there is so much here, but like I said this is my first time. I have done a ton or research, and everything seems to be going ok. I just want to see what you guys think. I would love for any advice or awnsers to my questions, I just want to make sure everything that is going on is "normal" !

Thanks a bunch
Dani

 

[Kent67]

If she's starting to dig test holes then it is getting close. She may do this for a couple of days before actually laying, but it is getting close. If you have any worries, you could set her up in a large trash can with soil in the bottom and whatever plants and branches will fit in there without allowing her to escape. At least then you wouldn't have to worry about her finding the nest box in her own cage. Otherwise, I've found that a lot of females will use tunnels that I start excavating for them a little. I've even picked up pardalis and oustaleti females, placed them in or just next to the pre-dug tunnel, walked away quickly, and the females have dug out the rest and laid.

The first nest box with only 8 inches of sand might be too shallow. How deep does she dig before giving up on the test hole?

Hope you get a nice clutch

 

[danielle609]

She dug about 4 inches into it. I have read about the trash can method, and bought one just incase, but is that something I would be able to put her into now? Is there a limit to how long you can keep a female in there? Thank you so much for the reply and I hope she has a nice clutch also

Dani

 

[Kent67]

Ok, I was wondering if she had decided the container was too shallow and gave up but apparently not so that's good. A couple good pics of her from different angles, like from behind and above could give us a good idea of how close she is.

No real time limit, it's just that a large trash can packed with 10 inches of soil really isn't going to provide as much useable space as her normal cage so I try to make the stay brief. It sounds like you're already doing everything right though. She's already investigating places to lay in her own cage so the trashcan method most likely won't be necessary, but it's good to be prepared just in case. Also, when using the trash can method I try to feed the female without letting the prey loose to avoid her picking up any of the soil.

Just remember to leave her alone when you find her sitting on the throne.

 

[pedro92]

from what u said she sounds like shes ready what are u doing with the new ones when they hatch.

 

[danielle609]

Ok, I was wondering if she had decided the container was too shallow and gave up but apparently not so that's good. A couple good pics of her from different angles, like from behind and above could give us a good idea of how close she is.

Here are the best pics I could get without making her too mad (They arn't vey good though) I also put in some pics of her laying containers. (there is normally a real ficus in there but it didn't fit w/ the lay boxes in there.)

hope the pics show up!
Thanks Kent!

 

[danielle609]

Sorry about the cage pics. I rotated them but I guess they wont stay rotated....um I guess you might have to tilt your head

 

[danielle609]

from what u said she sounds like shes ready what are u doing with the new ones when they hatch.

Assuming that they hatch I plan on keeping one of the males (to see how the colors turn out) and selling the rest. I plan on keeping the babies until they are about 3 months though. My sister works at a reptile store that is great with reptiles but I kinda want to be able to see who they go to, and also explain the care that they need. Because of that I may end up at a couple of the smaller reptile shows around my house. But like I said that is assuming they hatch. I have heard many people lose their first clutch, but I am hoping I get it right the first time. (fingers crossed )

 

[Kent67]

Ow, my neck! Nice, fat looking girl there. She doesn't look huge yet, so probably gonna be a few more days. Do you have an incubator and vermiculite already?

She looks so healthy she should produce some nice eggs. Just don't let them get too wet in incubation. My first clutch of panthers had 100% hatch and survive until I could sell them. Hopefully you'll have the same.

 

[kinyonga]

Kent said..."Just remember to leave her alone when you find her sitting on the throne"...not only should you leave her alone, don't let her see you watching her when she is digging or she may abandon the hole thinking its not a safe place to lay the eggs. If she abandons the hole often enough she may pass "her time" to lay the eggs and become eggbound. They will/may dig several test holes when not watched....but that's usually because she is looking for a suitable site.

Good luck!

 

[danielle609]

Thanks for the replies! I haven't been watching her, which is hard! tonight I just looked at her for the first time after the lights went out. She has dug a new hole in her large planter. It doesn't go all the way down but almost, so I might have to use the trash can method. Tonight when I looked at her (she was asleep) she had her calm colors, but her face has black on it, is this normal? I haven't seen it until today and didn't know if it was a sign of anything.(it isn't dirt ) So as of now I have vermiculite and perlite. I am not sure which one to use yet. I have heard they use the ratio 1 to 1 with water. Is this how you guys do it?? I have an incubator if needed (from previous beardie breeding) but I am planning on putting them in gladware and then into a dresser drawer that doesn't get opened. Thanks so much and thanks for "good lucks" and I am also hopping all goes well! Feel free to drop any more advice/comment, I love the feedback!

Dani

 

[Kent67]

Yep, "leave her alone" also includes not letting her see you watching. So, how many days has she actually been digging test holes now? It must be getting close, but with all her digging in her own cage I would probably not switch to the trash can just yet. She knows there is substrate to bury them in and has not given up because the containers are too shallow.

In my experience, some females keep their gravid colors while they sleep and others don't. Anecdotally, it seemed that younger females were more likely to not keep the gravid colors while sleeping. Anyone else notice that?

And for incubation medium, I've never used anything but vermiculite. I couldn't tell you a water ratio though. I think the reason many fail with their first clutches is they try to keep the eggs too moist. The egg shells are permeable and moisture passes in and out. You want the medium to be moist enough to allow a proper exchange of moisture and gases without drowning the egg or drawing out too much moisture. What I use is the pinch test. Pick up some of the vermiculite and you should not feel much, if any, moisture without squeezing it between your fingers.

Have fun counting eggs, it's really exciting!

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."(it isn't dirt ) So as of now I have vermiculite and perlite"...do you mean that where she is digging the holes is vermiculite and perlite? Those are what are used for incubating the eggs in. I don't know how she would be able to dig a proper hole in them. Washed sandbox sand is what I use. Some people use soils.

 

[danielle609]

You said..."(it isn't dirt ) So as of now I have vermiculite and perlite"...do you mean that where she is digging the holes is vermiculite and perlite? Those are what are used for incubating the eggs in. I don't know how she would be able to dig a proper hole in them. Washed sandbox sand is what I use. Some people use soils.

Sorry, I am really bad with correct sentences, the (isn't dirt) part goes with the black on her face. I just realized how poorly I moved into the next topic. (Her laying substrate is cocunut fiber and potting soil. It seems to be holding holes well)But the vermiculite and perlite are what I have to use an incubating medium. I should start using paragraphs, instead I have a tendancy to jumble eveything together

"So, how many days has she actually been digging test holes now? It must be getting close, but with all her digging in her own cage I would probably not switch to the trash can just yet. She knows there is substrate to bury them in and has not given up because the containers are too shallow."

Sunday morning is when I saw the first hole. She has dug a couple of holes since then also. I agree with you on waiting to move into the trash can, I just got worried that the hole she dug almost made it to the bottom. I think I am a paranoid person. I am starting to get anxious! I can't wait until I get to go on my "scavenger hunt"! Oh and about the vermicuite, I will prepare it the way you said, I really don't want to drown the little fellas! Thanks again guys!

Dani

 

[Kent67]

Sunday morning is when I saw the first hole. She has dug a couple of holes since then also. I agree with you on waiting to move into the trash can, I just got worried that the hole she dug almost made it to the bottom. I think I am a paranoid person. I am starting to get anxious! I can't wait until I get to go on my "scavenger hunt"! Oh and about the vermicuite, I will prepare it the way you said, I really don't want to drown the little fellas!

Don't know why I thought she'd been digging longer.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and set up the vermiculite container now. That way you could possibly still have a few days to make sure the water to verm ratio is good. You'll also see that you get some of the moisture lost to condensation on the lid of the egg container so you could experiment with that too. To be on the safe side I've always check on my eggs every other day or so for the first couple of weeks to make sure all stays well (hydration, dead eggs, etc.)

 

[danielle609]

well I just got home from class and decided to take a peek. She was sitting up on her branches at top. The large hole that she dug yesterday is now filled in, but she is still large, so I am assuming she didn't lay any eggs. Is is normal for her to fill in the test holes, or is that an indicater that she doesn't approve? Well I was at it I tossed in a couple crickets and she ate them (4 crickets) and she has had the dripper dripping most of the day. So hopefully she will lay them tommorow. But I am going to take your advice Kent and set up the incubation box today. I was wondering if it would hurt to split up the eggs and put half on vermiculite and half on perlite to see which I like better, if not I will just stick with the vermiculite seeing as that looks to be the most popular. But thanks again!!

Dani

 

[Kent67]

She should be filling in all the test holes. Don't worry, if you're not home when she lays, her size when you get home should make it obvious.

And you might actually like splitting the clutch up, as it could lead to different hatch times. You could find it easier to start raising 10 babies for a while before adding another 10. But yeah, go ahead and make sure you've got the moisture and temps correct now so all you have to do is add eggs later. Trust me, trying to put it all together while you're dieing to start digging eggs up can get quite frustrating. I guess you know to just bury about half of each egg in the vermiculite.....

well I just got home from class and decided to take a peek. She was sitting up on her branches at top. The large hole that she dug yesterday is now filled in, but she is still large, so I am assuming she didn't lay any eggs. Is is normal for her to fill in the test holes, or is that an indicater that she doesn't approve? Well I was at it I tossed in a couple crickets and she ate them (4 crickets) and she has had the dripper dripping most of the day. So hopefully she will lay them tommorow. But I am going to take your advice Kent and set up the incubation box today. I was wondering if it would hurt to split up the eggs and put half on vermiculite and half on perlite to see which I like better, if not I will just stick with the vermiculite seeing as that looks to be the most popular. But thanks again!!

Dani

 

[danielle609]

I guess you know to just bury about half of each egg in the vermiculite.....

That is how I was planning on doing it, but that was going to be my next question...I guess you can read mind too I am glad to know that so far everything is "normal". I was pretty sure there would be a big difference in her apperance once she lays, but the funny thing is is that I didn't realize she was all that large until my boyfriend came over and commented on how "fat" she was.

But how long does it take on average for your eggs to hatch? A friend of mine told me her shortest clutch was 10 months and her longest was 15 months. She was using an incubator, does that tend to lengthen the diapause(sp??) leading to a longer incubation?

Thanks again! Sorry I keep throwing questions at you

Dani

 

[Kent67]

...I guess you can read mind too

Yeah, I wish!

But how long does it take on average for your eggs to hatch? A friend of mine told me her shortest clutch was 10 months and her longest was 15 months. She was using an incubator, does that tend to lengthen the diapause(sp??) leading to a longer incubation?

My shortest was a week shy of 7 months. Can't remember the longest, but I know I've never gone over a year. Probably 10 months for me? Most have been 7.5-9 months. Diapause is a period of no development early on in the egg's incubation. I believe I've read that the length of time for diapause may also be influenced by geographic locale. Anyway, I've only messed with it once and still had an 8 month hatch time My understanding is to incubate at normal temps for the first 4-6 weeks. Then over a week or so drop the incubation temps down to 70 degrees and maybe even a little less. Maintain these lower temps for about a month. Then slowly raise the temps back up which should trigger development to resume.

 

[danielle609]

My shortest was a week shy of 7 months. Can't remember the longest, but I know I've never gone over a year. Probably 10 months for me? Most have been 7.5-9 months. Diapause is a period of no development early on in the egg's incubation. I believe I've read that the length of time for diapause may also be influenced by geographic locale. Anyway, I've only messed with it once and still had an 8 month hatch time My understanding is to incubate at normal temps for the first 4-6 weeks. Then over a week or so drop the incubation temps down to 70 degrees and maybe even a little less. Maintain these lower temps for about a month. Then slowly raise the temps back up which should trigger development to resume.

I can handle 10 months, after a year I would probably start to get extremely anxious waiting for them Do you use an incubator or just move them to various areas in the house where there are different temps. I was planning on puting them in the bottom of a dresser drawer where the temps are between 65-72 depending on the time/temp outside. We set our thermostat to 68 but some rooms end up having slightly different temps. If I just left them in my dresser(for about a month) and then move them into a closest in a room that is slightly warmer would that be ok?? That is what I had planned, but I want to do everything "perfect" even though I know everyone has their own "technique". But it is nice getting advice from those that have had a lot of practice, and if I remember from other posts you (Kent) have been at this for awhile as well as many others that have given me great advice!


Dani