Females not bred = Egg-binding?

[Brad Ramsey]

I am starting this thread in order to open a discussion about the idea that if you don't breed your female chameleon, she will become eggbound and die.
This is an old and incorrect idea, but apparently there are still those who are either reading this in outdated material or being told by "experts" that this is the case.
I would love for some seasoned breeders and keepers of female chams to shed some light here.

-Brad

 

[Ashley]

I know this post is particularly about what my boyfriend and I posted earlier and we found that that is untrue, but I did have a question. Most of the things that I have read about females laying eggs whether fertile or not was specifically about veileds, but is the same true for panther females. She never laid before we bought her but she was about a year then?
This may be a stupid ? but I have never found a straight answer....

 

[dodolah]

I know this post is particularly about what my boyfriend and I posted earlier and we found that that is untrue, but I did have a question. Most of the things that I have read about females laying eggs whether fertile or not was specifically about veileds, but is the same true for panther females. She never laid before we bought her but she was about a year then?
This may be a stupid ? but I have never found a straight answer....

i think so..
It's all due to the captivity situation where your animal is constantly supplied with bountiful gut loaded insect.
That is why it is generally recommended to regulate your female cham's diet.
If you overfed her, she will start laying eggs again.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I know this post is particularly about what my boyfriend and I posted earlier and we found that that is untrue, but I did have a question. Most of the things that I have read about females laying eggs whether fertile or not was specifically about veileds, but is the same true for panther females. She never laid before we bought her but she was about a year then?
This may be a stupid ? but I have never found a straight answer....

I don't believe there is any species of chameleon that the life of the female is dependent on being bred.
It is true that egg production can be controlled by diet.
The person I would consider to be most knowledgeable about this topic is Kinyonga. She has had a great deal of experience and success with females of multiple species in both breeding and controlling egg production.

-Brad

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

I've always let my females go through their first cycle without any mating.
They've all passed the eggs easily enough. The clutch count and egg size
is so small that it's not even noticeable.

Females panthers and veilds don't need to be bred to remain healthy.

 

[Ashley]

...but both will lay infertile clutches...

 

[lele]

Luna (veiled) laid her first infertile clutch of 37 eggs at about one year. She went on to produce 3 more ranging between 37-42 eggs over the next year (every 3 months). She died July 2005 at 26 months after producing (with no problem) 4 clutches. At the time, I had a difficult time finding many people who had not bred their females with few exceptions, one being kinyonga as Brad mentioned.

Luna had a lot of calcium imbalance and my vet and I worked closely (along with a few people on the KS forum) trying to keep her set. She died on the way to the vet (she had a sudden change in color and behavior that morning), though there was nothing he could have done. He did a necropsy and found her abdomen filled with blood. It seems that something had burst and most likely from the constant pressure on a vessel of her being almost constantly gravid. He also saw egg follicles so she was on her way again.

I think diet was most likely the reason for the size and frequencies of her clutches. She would literally go weeks without eating so, like a good mom (or so I thought), I would get her to eat a lot whenever I could, probably over doing it.

I just wanted to share her story in case it helps.

lele

 

[kinyonga]

Brad said..."The person I would consider to be most knowledgeable about this topic is Kinyonga. She has had a great deal of experience and success with females of multiple species in both breeding and controlling egg production"...thanks for the compliment Brad...but I still have lots to learn.

Through diet (and slight temperature decreases) I have found that I can stop the veiled chameleons from laying any eggs. These females usually live to be over 6 years of age...some even live to be over 7. (I have two right now...one will be 7 in three months and the other is 4+ and neither has laid an egg.) If I decide to breed them, I alter the diet and temperature and mate them and they will lay fertile eggs (up to a point...old age seems to make them infertile eventually). The clutches are always around the 2 dozen mark.

With panther chameleons, I can not stop the egg production but I seem to be able to keep the clutch size low (20 or so).

 

[dodolah]

Brad said..."The person I would consider to be most knowledgeable about this topic is Kinyonga. She has had a great deal of experience and success with females of multiple species in both breeding and controlling egg production"...thanks for the compliment Brad...but I still have lots to learn.

Through diet (and slight temperature decreases) I have found that I can stop the veiled chameleons from laying any eggs. These females usually live to be over 6 years of age...some even live to be over 7. (I have two right now...one will be 7 in three months and the other is 4+ and neither has laid an egg.) If I decide to breed them, I alter the diet and temperature and mate them and they will lay fertile eggs (up to a point...old age seems to make them infertile eventually). The clutches are always around the 2 dozen mark.

With panther chameleons, I can not stop the egg production but I seem to be able to keep the clutch size low (20 or so).

kinyonga, have you thought about maybe making a thread or blog to educate us about controlling your female's egg production? I would love to read it.
I am versed enough with the care of male. but when it gets to female, i'm clueless (that is also why i always refused purchasing female chams)

 

[Justin Carl]

yea i am with dodolah. i would love to read about that.

 

[kinyonga]

I'll be writing something up soon about it.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I am looking forward to that!

*wink*

-Brad

 

[Chase]

I am looking forward to that!

*wink*

-Brad

Couldn't Egg-Binding happen even if you haven't bred the female because they deposit eggs even if they haven't bred.

 

[kinyonga]

LinkinParkrulz08 said..."Couldn't Egg-Binding happen even if you haven't bred the female because they deposit eggs even if they haven't bred"...eggbinding doesn't happen when a virgin female lays eggs unless she has a physical reason or husbandry issue.

Egg binding is usually caused by (but not limited to) these things...poor husbandry, overfeeding, lack of calcium, fused eggs, reproductive tract deformities, deformed eggs, failure to provide a suitable nesting site, seeing someone watching her repeatedly while she is digging, etc.

 

[Chase]

LinkinParkrulz08 said..."Couldn't Egg-Binding happen even if you haven't bred the female because they deposit eggs even if they haven't bred"...eggbinding doesn't happen when a virgin female lays eggs unless she has a physical reason or husbandry issue.

Egg binding is usually caused by (but not limited to) these things...poor husbandry, overfeeding, lack of calcium, fused eggs, reproductive tract deformities, deformed eggs, failure to provide a suitable nesting site, seeing someone watching her repeatedly while she is digging, etc.

But because she has to deposit them, if she doesn't have a place to put them then she could, couldn't she?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."But because she has to deposit them, if she doesn't have a place to put them then she could, couldn't she?"...that's one of the main reasons for eggbinding.

 

[Chase]

You said..."But because she has to deposit them, if she doesn't have a place to put them then she could, couldn't she?"...that's one of the main reasons for eggbinding.

Well,

Then even since they dont have to breed to lay eggs then they could?

 

[kinyonga]

Not all species produce eggs without having been mated. Veileds and panthers do for instance, but I have never had a senegal produce eggs when not mated.

 

[Chase]

Not all species produce eggs without having been mated. Veileds and panthers do for instance, but I have never had a senegal produce eggs when not mated.

That was something I didnt know. Hey, we learn something new everyday. Yay for me! lol

 

[MWheelock]

Not totally off the subject but I have a question.

Is anyone familiar with luperon? This is an injectable hormone given to birds to stop egg production of females.

I'm wondering if anyone has heard of any female chams given this therapy, which might inncrease the lifespn of the females. I'm going to write to some professors to see if this can be used/ or have been used on any reptiles.

Matthew