Fluoride causing edema?

[Mike Fisher]

I'm starting to suspect fluoride as the cause of edema in some of my animals. If I use rain water, all signs of edema subside. When I switch back to tap water, some of my animals develop edema.

I let the tap water sit for about a week to get the chlorine out before putting it in the reservoir.

The symptoms of fluoride poisoning is consistent with what I'm seeing in some animals in my collection.

Thoughts or input from keepers who filter the fluoride out of their water? Do you see incidence of edema in your collection?

 

[BobS346]

While I certainly can't say fluoride can't cause edema, I have unflouidated water to start with and still run it through an RO system. I still have had occasional flare ups of gular edema. Certainly, there can be more than one cause, so that doesn't rule out fluoride as the cause in your chams!

 

[Carlton]

I'm starting to suspect fluoride as the cause of edema in some of my animals. If I use rain water, all signs of edema subside. When I switch back to tap water, some of my animals develop edema.

I let the tap water sit for about a week to get the chlorine out before putting it in the reservoir.

The symptoms of fluoride poisoning is consistent with what I'm seeing in some animals in my collection.

Thoughts or input from keepers who filter the fluoride out of their water? Do you see incidence of edema in your collection?

Very interesting...so you know your water is fluoridated? In some ways it might be good to have a potential cause pinned down, but on the other, not great news for keepers who don't have a choice for their water source. Again, an RO filter would hopefully remove it. I've been on wells for decades so don't know from experience.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Very interesting...so you know your water is fluoridated?

Oh yeah, they put the poison in the water here. We tried to pass a measure to remove it, but stupid people around here believe it is good for them and it failed.

 

[pigglett79]

I have been using RO water for my chams for a year now and I havent seen any decrease in their edema, so for me probably its something else. I'm always interested in any new ideas though.

 

[laurie]

My water is RO filtered. I very seldom see any edema, but I can't be sure that is it. But it sure may be a factor. Great catch on your part. I love the fact that you are always thinking outside the box. That is part of what makes you the excellent keeper you are.

 

[Mike Fisher]

My water is RO filtered. I very seldom see any edema, but I can't be sure that is it. But it sure may be a factor. Great catch on your part. I love the fact that you are always thinking outside the box. That is part of what makes you the excellent keeper you are.

Thank you Laurie. I recently reread Doug Dix's excellent article on T. quadricornis, and it also specifically mentioned edema when exposed to different water supplies. I'm well aware of how toxic fluoride can be. The deadliest fluoride poisoning in history happened just down the street from me in the 1940's. It is a very grim tale and killed a lot of people. It was fed to 467 people. For anyone interested, the article is here: http://offbeatoregon.com/1211c-asylum-kitchen-mixup-killed-hundreds-with-scrambled-eggs.html

It is a very good read, and might make you realize that this should not be in our water. It causes hypothyroidism making you gain weight, calcifies the pineal gland, and actually increases the odds of hip fractures.

I walk by that hospital every day, and it is also the place they filmed "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest".

 

[Mike Fisher]

Just found a reference of hexafluorosilicic acid in mist form causing lung edema. I've lost a few chameleons recently to lung edema. I originally thought it was LRI but it was unresponsive to antibiotic treatment.

That is the same form of fluoride they use in my local water supply.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I have been using RO water exclusively for the last few years but still had edema in my jacksons intermittently and occasionally in my Panther. When it first started in them I was using tap water that was fluorinated but we moved not long after and I upgraded to the mistking using RO water.

 

[pamnsam94]

Amazing that after all these years, experienced keepers are still trying to solve the edema problem/puzzle. Most keepers that have seen their fair share of edemas over the years have proposed all sorts of causes and most of them are well aware that since edemas are a symptom of underlying organ malfunction (e.g. liver or kidneys), the causes can be many (over supplementation, dehydration, etc.), so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if fluoride was a cause also.

I use RO water myself, so with my animals, I believe most of the time I've experienced edemas it was due to too much D3. It's uncommon for me to see edemas anymore (that wasn't the case in the days of the Chameleon Information Network) because I'm very careful, maybe overly so, with my supplementation.

When I do occasionally see edemas in my established animals, it almost always coincides with me feeding my chams recently acquired insects that were gut loaded by the supplier with foods that were highly fortified with vitamins, particularly D3. Even after I keep those feeders up to a week so they can clear out their guts, I would sometimes see edemas, indicating that some feeders can store fat soluble vitamins for an undetermined amount of time. That's a conclusion that John Annis (1st editor of the CIN) also came to when he noticed neonates of T. montium get edemas soon after being fed commercially bred insects, even though he waited a week before feeding those insects to his chameleons.

Again though, I wouldn't be surprised if fluoride were also shown to have a direct connection. To me, it seems much, much more plausible as a cause than does the "spiky" legs of crickets irritating the throat of chameleons. Ever hear that one? That's an idea I think I first heard about in the late 80s.

Perry

 

[GCash]

I use well water RO filtered also and have seen edema in some of the quads and montiums I have during their settling in, but don't get me started on fluoride. It's supposed to be good for your teeth, but somehow my childhood dentist was puzzled at a (luckily) slight pitting in my enamel which I've lived with my entire life and have somewhat recently found out it is dental fluorosis from overexposure to fluoride. Upon researching, I not only found out about the calcification of the pineal gland as you mentioned, but also that it was used on Russian prisoners back in the day to make them complacent and unimaginative so they would just accept their conditions, comply and not try to escape. Funny it found its way into our country's municipal water supply. But I guess it being a by product of the super fertilizers that grow the large scale produce to feed our country, it makes more monetary sense to lobby its "benefits" and sell it to the municipalities, toothpaste manufacturers, and the dentists that use it on our kids than pay for its disposal as toxic waste. Right? After learning this, I thought I would share this information with my grandfather, but much to my surprise, I was two generations too late. His late brother, my great uncle, was a pharmacist who led the opposition against fluoridating Roanoke VA's water supply, stating that "It makes no sense putting rat poison in our drinking water". Oddly enough one of the other uses of fluoride. Strange how stuff like this can run in the family.

I think you're on to something for those affected. I try to stay away from it like the plague.

 

[GCash]

And yes, I'm familiar with Paracelsus' "The dose makes the poison" but still...

 

[kinyonga]

FWIW my town water contains fluoride and I have used it for years for my chameleons after leaving it to sit out overnight and rarely get edema in any of them.

 

[pigglett79]

I would love to figure out the many causes of edema. I'm using RO water, I don't use D3 but take my guys outside as much as I can and I breed my own insects (silks, horn worm, roaches, stick insects, isopods and snails) fed a variety of veggies, greens and home made dry mix of nuts, seeds etc. I have tried addressing the various causes and still don't see improvement. I did even try adding more multi vitamin when it was suggested that it could be under supplementation. I have a panther who has had pretty severe gular edema for 2 years, no other issues are apparent and he acts normal (normal blood work, fecal and x rays). I have another panther w fluid all the way around his neck, in his face and a little in the gular region. This guy also has really inflated fat pads that seem to be air or fluid filled (he was adopted and came to me this way) a vet said they are air filled and i do notice them dimple in as he chews his food. Normal blood, fecal and x ray. They aspirated some of the fluid and didn't learn anything from that either. And finally my Jackson does have mild gular edema that seems to fluctuate a bit.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I've never had a problem with edema until now and the only thing that has really changed is that I got lazy and didn't put my catch basins out in the rain to collect the rain water for them.

It is driving me crazy, but just with one species. The one I really care the most about because they are the rarest Kinyongia in captivity. I'm losing them one by one to this. It starts with gular edema, then progresses to the lungs where they cough and wheeze to get the water out, but eventually it wears them down and they drown in their own fluid.

I don't believe it is the feeders. I breed all my feeders, primarily crickets. The only time I order them is to get new adults so I can get eggs from them for genetic diversity in my colony. I won't feed from the imported batch, I breed them until they die of old age.

I've switched over to distilled water to see if I can save the few I have left.

 

[MelissaB]

If the only thing that has changed is the water supply, I'd buy either distilled water or try to find bottled water that has no fluoride in it. The animals that are affected might be more sensitive to it than other species.

Edit:
Just noticed in the above post that that's what you're doing.

 

[pamnsam94]

I don't believe it is the feeders. I breed all my feeders, primarily crickets. The only time I order them is to get new adults so I can get eggs from them for genetic diversity in my colony. I won't feed from the imported batch, I breed them until they die of old age.

Am I thinking of someone else or do you make your own gut-load with whole ingredients (bee pollen, etc.)?

The fluoride in your water may very well be the cause in your situation. I've never worked with the species you're having trouble with. However, by limiting all sources of synthetic vitamins in the species I've worked with (including quads and Johnston's), I've been able to prevent edemas in most instances.

However, I tend to only consider synthetic vitamins, not just the obvious powdered supplements but the gut-loads containing highly fortified ingredients where vitamins are added.

For some species though, I wonder if even the levels of vitamins or chemicals in whole, naturally occurring foods that most of us feel safe using in our gut-loads might also be problematic. Although most of us have heard, "just because something is natural doesn't mean it's totally safe", many of us still have a tendency to think that, in most instances, if a food is natural, then it can't or won't cause problems. Maybe even some gut-loads (homemade or otherwise) that are only made with natural ingredients, while proven to work well with some species, may cause edemas in other species. Just a thought. For those of us that use RO or distilled water, at least we are eliminating fluoride, one potential cause of edemas.

Perry

 

[pamnsam94]

If I use rain water, all signs of edema subside. When I switch back to tap water, some of my animals develop edema.

Did you also make that observation with the Kinyongia species you are referring to? If so, and there wasn't a change in any of the other variables, then I too would also be highly suspicious of at least one of the components in your tap water.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Am I thinking of someone else or do you make your own gut-load with whole ingredients (bee pollen, etc.)?

I make my own organic gut load, organic multivitamin, and calcium/D3 powders. Even though none of that has changed, I've stopped all supplementation for the affected animals while I try to work through it.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Did you also make that observation with the Kinyongia species you are referring to?

Yes, that species is the only one having symptoms. Specifically Kinyongia uluguruensis.