Foggers, a Tool or a Danger?

[cyberlocc]

This might be relevant: We have a countertop ice maker. The instructions are to clean it very infrequently, as even very dilute chemicals can deteriorate the ice making metal surfaces. Instead, every night, the machine is drained and allowed to dry out completely. This, or so I am told, prevents bacteria growth. I wonder whether simply using fans through our fogging pipes during the day might have the same effect?

That is an idea, that was presented last I spoke about fogger bacteria. @Taylor81 said she does this, and she hasnt cleaned the pipes or the system in a long time I believe and has not noticed bacteria, YMMV.

However it is a valid idea to deal with the bacteria aspect in the tubes. I would still be leary of the "reservoir" and the particles of contamination that could be introduced by the fans.

However a point of contention in the idea, is the presence of water. If your to leave the fogger fan on everyday, you have simply changed media. You have turned a fogger into an evap cooler, it will still be blowing humid air through the tubes. To completely dry out, the fogger would have to be dumped, completely and then the fan turned on.

 

[Kaizen]

That is an idea, that was presented last I spoke about fogger bacteria. @Taylor81 said she does this, and she hasnt cleaned the pipes or the system in a long time I believe and has not noticed bacteria, YMMV.

However it is a valid idea to deal with the bacteria aspect in the tubes. I would still be leary of the "reservoir" and the particles of contamination that could be introduced by the fans.

However a point of contention in the idea, is the presence of water. If your to leave the fogger fan on everyday, you have simply changed media. You have turned a fogger into an evap cooler, it will still be blowing humid air through the tubes. To completely dry out, the fogger would have to be dumped, completely and then the fan turned on.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Add only as much water to the reservoir as you need for the night. Next morning it should be empty. Then just dry everything out and repeat. I have no idea if it’s practical for any/all applications, it’s just a thought that I took as possible relevant here.

 

[cyberlocc]

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Add only as much water to the reservoir as you need for the night. Next morning it should be empty. Then just dry everything out and repeat. I have no idea if it’s practical for any/all applications, it’s just a thought that I took as possible relevant here.

The issue being, I dont think, most of the foggers will run dry like that? Im not sure if the packaged models on like amazon will, house of hydro's defiantly will not.

Also the new keepers, is my real concern here. Folks that have been around and want to play with foggers, they are more able to see an RI begin, and catch it (maybe with the help of this thread). However just as we dissuade new keepers away from waterfalls, due to the frequent cleaning and little perceived gain, I feel the same is applicable here.

If someone grabs a fogger, on recommendation, then proceeds to use it without cleaning (they didn't read that part, or simply dont want to, or forget). They get an RI, then see Heat + Humidity = RI, so they as Ferrit said in the other thread, try to "dry out" the cham or even worse, lower the daily temp, they are going to make things worse. Even if they visit a vet, one that doesn't know the dangers of a fogger, maybe not reptile Savvy, who gives them medication, but they are still dumping bacteria.


I dont think I quoted that piece, but I like the fact that Madcham brought up the Fog in the Rainforest, the most common fogs, are the wetting fogs anyway. These are 10-50 microns, you know what else is 50 microns? Our Mistking. There is some science saying the plants, dont make much use of fog under I think it was 30, this is the idea behind Aeroponics, and 40-50 microns is the sweet spot for the plants, which is what our MK provides. The MK puts out, a varied mist, not all of it is 50 Microns, but alot of it is. See the particles that are fog looking, and get moved easily by the air once leaving, thats the 50m.

 

[Taylor81]

That is an idea, that was presented last I spoke about fogger bacteria. @Taylor81 said she does this, and she hasnt cleaned the pipes or the system in a long time I believe and has not noticed bacteria, YMMV.

However it is a valid idea to deal with the bacteria aspect in the tubes. I would still be leary of the "reservoir" and the particles of contamination that could be introduced by the fans.

However a point of contention in the idea, is the presence of water. If your to leave the fogger fan on everyday, you have simply changed media. You have turned a

He bud, he. Lol.

I personally avoid these long drawn out debates as I have no one I care to convince. I just wanted to chime in on Bill's post before with what I do and have observed because I fully believe in these methods and moreso with my own observations.

Scrutinize the methods and be skeptical. I'm not gonna debate it. Find someone else who wants to truly do, IDC. I'll just continue to do me. As I said in that post I have been in this practice for actually over a year now at this point. If bacteria was a problem and happening, which I have seen zero signs of as I said. Surely in a year of time one of my many chameleons benefiting from this would have gotten sick, and they have not.

I have observations at my intensity of fogging of actual swallowing of what is believed to be the nasal drip caused at night by the high levels of fog. Which was the product of a few theories I had heard for me seeking this observation. I actually have a few instances of this on film. And several more in unrecorded playback on my Wyze Camera I used to observe this very action happening several times during the night while fog is being supplied.

But anyhow, I got tagged and read this so I responded because my sex is apparently in question LOL.

I'm not fighting or arguing I understand you guys arent attacking it and like to debate every minute detail. I however do not.

 

[PetNcs]

The real answer does not lay IMHO in theoretical debates but rather in the two following approaches:

1. what are chameleons exposed to the wild?
2. what show real captive long term experiments?

i have lots of self collected data and data from colleagues both from the wild as well as captivity both on 1 and 2.

short and dirt conclusion without details:

1. it is absolutely naturalmfor many if not all chameleon soecies (including those you would not guess lile eg C namaquensis) to spend several hours per night in a substantial portion of the Year sitting at night at over 90% humidity and in fog

2. fogger if used at LOW TEMPS (under 18, best 15‘C) exclusively at NIGHT or early morning hours in WELL VENTILLATED space is the best hydration method ever and is simulating millions if years dsily chameleon exposire to the Mother Nature

most opponents I have met so far purely theoretize without practical experience and ignore natural humidity cycles in the wild

most proponents habe valid experience from respecting the riles defined above

 

[cyberlocc]

He bud, he. Lol.

I guess I had you confused, with Taylor Matthews, my apologies.

As I said in that post I have been in this practice for actually over a year now at this point. If bacteria was a problem and happening, which I have seen zero signs of as I said. Surely in a year of time one of my many chameleons benefiting from this would have gotten sick, and they have not.

Bacteria is a problem, that is not a debate. That is a scientific fact. That is not only be backed by Madcham.de, as in the OP, but as a concern to humans, with Govt agency's, such as the ones listed and CDC, stating it is a real issue.

The question in concern here, was if the dry out works, you said it did for you, so that was a valid data point. If you do not want to add that data point, thats fine however.

The real answer does not lay IMHO in theoretical debates but rather in the two following approaches:

1. what are chameleons exposed to the wild?
2. what show real captive long term experiments?

i have lots of self collected data and data from colleagues both from the wild as well as captivity both on 1 and 2.

short and dirt conclusion without details:

1. it is absolutely naturalmfor many if not all chameleon soecies (including those you would not guess lile eg C namaquensis) to spend several hours per night in a substantial portion of the Year sitting at night at over 90% humidity and in fog

2. fogger if used at LOW TEMPS (under 18, best 15‘C) exclusively at NIGHT or early morning hours in WELL VENTILLATED space is the best hydration method ever and is simulating millions if years dsily chameleon exposire to the Mother Nature

most opponents I have met so far purely theoretize without practical experience and ignore natural humidity cycles in the wild

most proponents habe valid experience from respecting the riles defined above

This thread, is not so much about hydrating at night, as much as it is the device used to do so.

Again, Alex made a comment about the night time hydration and the fogs, effect. However I kind of glossed over it, the premise of the thread, is more about what the OP said. Is foggers, a tool or a danger. The "foggers" do not create humidity, they can only create particles down to 5 microns, and most likely dont even go that low. They are not humidity, they are a fine mist.

"most opponents I have met so far purely theoretize without practical experience and ignore natural humidity cycles in the wild"

I would implore to read the article sourced a few times. I am pretty sure, and no offense meant by this, but Madhcams study of Madagascar, is more intense then your own. They spend much more time there, with half the team calling it their full time home.

Also as you can see here Petr, I said your logic made perfect sense.
"The theory holds water . And increase in Humidity at night, would surely slow the loss of water, I think we can all fathom why this works and how it works. Breathing in highly humid air, may also result in a hydration effect more testing is needed to be sure, but it makes sense."

The question is on the device we are using, not on whether or not higher night time humidity will decrease water loss, and increase hydration.

 

[Taylor81]

I guess I had you confused, with Taylor Matthews, my apologies.




Bacteria is a problem, that is not a debate. That is a scientific fact. That is not only be backed by Madcham.de, as in the OP, but as a concern to humans, with Govt agency's, such as the ones listed and CDC, stating it is a real issue.

The question in concern here, was if the dry out works, you said it did for you, so that was a valid data point. If you do not want to add that data point, thats fine however.

Grant Taylor. I'm most active on FB in "Chameleon Culture Club" and "Parson's club International"

Nothing to hide or hide behind didn't realise the confusion. No worries.

 

[Taylor81]

I guess I had you confused, with Taylor Matthews, my apologies.




Bacteria is a problem, that is not a debate. That is a scientific fact. That is not only be backed by Madcham.de, as in the OP, but as a concern to humans, with Govt agency's, such as the ones listed and CDC, stating it is a real issue.

The question in concern here, was if the dry out works, you said it did for you, so that was a valid data point. If you do not want to add that data point, thats fine however.

Well I dont have Data points you'll consider valid as you insist on the scientific backed data.

So I dont have Swab sampling for proof of clean ducting, I dont have water collection samples proving the water is bacteria free.

I voiced how the ducting did in fact dry pit during the day despite the air moving across the water of the reservoir. I also stated I do clean the reservoir once a month. But have seen zero signs that concern me, such as slimy residue, discoloration, odors, or any real tell tales of bacterial growth.

So I dont really have a foot in debating the science side of it. I'll admit that. So why start an argument over bubkiss.

My chameleons are fine and more than perfectly healthy.

 

[cyberlocc]

Well I dont have Data points you'll consider valid as you insist on the scientific backed data.

So I dont have Swab sampling for proof of clean ducting, I dont have water collection samples proving the water is bacteria free.

I voiced how the ducting did in fact dry pit during the day despite the air moving across the water of the reservoir. I also stated I do clean the reservoir once a month. But have seen zero signs that concern me, such as slimy residue, discoloration, odors, or any real tell tales of bacterial growth.

So I dont really have a foot in debating the science side of it. I'll admit that. So why start an argument over bubkiss.

My chameleons are fine and more than perfectly healthy.

That data point is valid, however. If you have not developed bacteria by that method that is a great start to finding a work around. Others can mimic the idea, and hopefully get the same result.

My experience with foggers was not the same, thats what lead me down the path of studying these thoughts. I did have a slimy, smelly substance in my Tubes. Nightanole had the same, in the entire room the fogger was located, accompanied by frequent RIs.

Lots of Folks here, that have moved away from the fogger, here on CF, have had the same experience. None of the folks that have had bacterial slimes have ran their fans 24/7 though. If I didn't think your idea was a valid one, I would not have mentioned it or tagged you.

I am not sure however, about commercial foggers that are being pushed around here and elsewhere. Alot of folks are not buying DIY foggers, they are buying the commercial versions on amazon and duct taping a hose on. I'm not sure those devices can run a fan, 24/7 its something folks with that device, will have to let us know.

 

[Taylor81]

I guess I had you confused, with Taylor Matthews, my apologies.




Bacteria is a problem, that is not a debate. That is a scientific fact. That is not only be backed by Madcham.de, as in the OP, but as a concern to humans, with Govt agency's, such as the ones listed and CDC, stating it is a real issue.

The question in concern here, was if the dry out works, you said it did for you, so that was a valid data point. If you do not want to add that data point, thats fine however.




This thread, is not so much about hydrating at night, as much as it is the device used to do so.

Again, Alex made a comment about the

That data point is valid, however. If you have not developed bacteria by that method that is a great start to finding a work around. Others can mimic the idea, and hopefully get the same result.

My experience with foggers was not the same, thats what lead me down the path of studying these thoughts. I did have a slimy, smelly substance in my Tubes. Nightanole had the same, in the entire room the fogger was located, accompanied by frequent RIs.

Lots of Folks here, that have moved away from the fogger, here on CF, have had the same experience. None of the folks that have had bacterial slimes have ran their fans 24/7 though. If I didn't think your idea was a valid one, I would not have mentioned it or tagged you.

I am not sure however, about commercial foggers that are being pushed around here and elsewhere. Alot of folks are not buying DIY foggers, they are buying the commercial versions on amazon and duct taping a hose on. I'm not sure those devices can run a fan, 24/7 its something folks with that device, will have to let us know.

Understood, I misperceived the intent of the OP when reading the madcham data about the micron size of the water, which leads down a different path of implying they do not breathe anything in.

And no, the house humidifiers from what I understand and have seen owning some in the past once the water level for them reaches a level it cant run the disc safely they shut off completely. Fogger and fan run together and yes I see and understand the concerns here. Where water will stay and never dry in the tubing.

 

[cyberlocc]

Understood, I misperceived the intent of the OP when reading the madcham data about the micron size of the water, which leads down a different path of implying they do not breathe anything in.

I think Petr did too, which was not the intent at all. We really dont know, if they can breathe in the foggers mist, or if they cant. That is something that would have to be tested, and isnt likely to happen. However they 100% can breath in the rise of RH, which is an aftermath of the fogger being used no debate there at all.

That was why I added, and glossed over that part. We dont know if they can breath the "Foggers" Fog, and there is other methods, are arguably safer to raise nighttime humidity.

And no, the house humidifiers from what I understand and have seen owning some in the past once the water level for them reaches a level it cant run the disc safely they shut off completely. Fogger and fan run together and yes I see and understand the concerns here. Where water will stay and never dry in the tubing.

Which is also a valid data point. As the threads involving humans, and the issues that have presented, are all surrounding those commercial devices. Those fields have likely not looked into running the fans 24/7 as a way of stopping bacterial growth as it is not possible with those cheap devices that are frequently used.

I am just trying to bring attention to the reality that the foggers, if not used correctly, and especially those amazon sealed versions, could be dangerous. Then have the community share their thoughts and solutions to that issue. Whether that is as you have presented a way, that is shown to fix the bacterial concern, or other ways of raising night time humidity.

 

[nightanole]

Im wondering if bacteria in the fogger tubes/reservoir is even a problem. I drink out of the hose, i have well water unfiltered other than a softener. I have read cases of humans having problems drinking well water 100's of miles away because the flora is different and they have not adapted to it.

I dont believe My RI's were caused by dirty ultrasonic misters.

My hypothesis is down to 2 causes:

1) ultra sonic (and good old mist kings etc) shove "everything" in the water into the air. I think this may produce a hydroponic effect were nutrients are dispersed onto any surface that will collect them. Combined with high humidity, you now have food and water for lots of things(bacteria, mold, mildew, etc) to grow.

2) High humidity period, regardless if its steam, evaporation, or ultrasonic, combined with lack of air circulation(cuz winter and door is shut), turns the cage/room into a mushroom pit.


So it may be that you need both humidity and air circulation in order to prevent RI, and you could be sucking pond water through your mist king/ultrasonic and be just fine

 

[Taylor81]

I think Petr did too, which was not the intent at all. We really dont know, if they can breathe in the foggers mist, or if they cant. That is something that would have to be tested, and isnt likely. However they 100% can breath in the rise of RH, which is an aftermath of the fogger being used no debate there at all.

I can only report my own observations stemming from others theories. No there is no scientific proof behind this.

And that is the camera footage I mentioned earlier. Do I have proof of what's happening. No but it is believed the video I have captured proves such theory.

I have several recordings, and some unrecorded playback as well. Of the act of swallowing multiple times a night during the times fogging is being supplied. The theory of rhis is that the breathed in particles cling around in the nasal cavity until a nasal drip is caused stimulating swallowing.

I have not observed this at night without the foggers going.


I personally fully believe this and here is why, it has been proven in the past that force hydrating, caused from prolonged periods of an old method of "showering" chameleons would cause involuntary swallowing reflexes as water poured into the nostrils, my thoughts are if it can be forced in with running water, why cant it be breathed in from tiny particles and swallowed in a similar manner. Manner of which I believe I have video of. This is personal speculation to the theory I've heard and made efforts to observe.

 

[Taylor81]

Im wondering if bacteria in the fogger tubes/reservoir is even a problem. I drink out of the hose, i have well water unfiltered other than a softener. I have read cases of humans having problems drinking well water 100's of miles away because the flora is different and they have not adapted to it.

I dont believe My RI's were caused by dirty ultrasonic misters.

My hypothesis is down to 2 causes:

1) ultra sonic (and good old mist kings etc) shove "everything" in the water into the air. I think this may produce a hydroponic effect were nutrients are dispersed onto any surface that will collect them. Combined with high humidity, you now have food and water for lots of things(bacteria, mold, mildew, etc) to grow.

2) High humidity period, regardless if its steam, evaporation, or ultrasonic, combined with lack of air circulation(cuz winter and door is shut), turns the cage/room into a mushroom pit.


So it may be that you need both humidity and air circulation in order to prevent RI, and you could be sucking pond water through your mist king/ultrasonic and be just fine

Air circulation is extremely key yes. I do air exchanges as well as run intermittent air movement with several fans throughout the night. The stagnation of the air creates the ability for bacterial build up. This we know aside from fogging.

 

[cyberlocc]

Im wondering if bacteria in the fogger tubes/reservoir is even a problem. I drink out of the hose, i have well water unfiltered other than a softener. I have read cases of humans having problems drinking well water 100's of miles away because the flora is different and they have not adapted to it.

Well it has been seen to be a serious issue in Humans. Children, have died from the use of these cheap amazon ultrasonic foggers. From Severe respiratory infections.

5 microns, is enough to get into humans lungs, and so you are creating an airborne bacteria and its going straight into your lungs.

Also, the well water, is like you said your use to that bacteria. Same principle as in the other thread, my "Bubble Cham Syndrome" theory.

I dont believe My RI's were caused by dirty ultrasonic misters.

My hypothesis is down to 2 causes:

1) ultra sonic (and good old mist kings etc) shove "everything" in the water into the air. I think this may produce a hydroponic effect were nutrients are dispersed onto any surface that will collect them. Combined with high humidity, you now have food and water for lots of things(bacteria, mold, mildew, etc) to grow.

2) High humidity period, regardless if its steam, evaporation, or ultrasonic, combined with lack of air circulation(cuz winter and door is shut), turns the cage/room into a mushroom pit.

So it may be that you need both humidity and air circulation in order to prevent RI,

There is definitely good reasoning to that. Ventilation is defiantly a factor, as is likely the "Bubble Cham Syndrome" that I mentioned in the heat and humidity thread.

A ceiling fan, or Air purifier would help great with that, to keep air moving, lots of plants in the cage / room would also help.

you could be sucking pond water through your mist king/ultrasonic and be just fine

I wouldn't go that far... The humidity and the Fog, Rain the Chameleons are exposed to the in the wild, are acidic. Non Polluted rain water is what 5.5ph?

I can only report my own observations stemming from others theories. No there is no scientific proof behind this.

And that is the camera footage I mentioned earlier. Do I have proof of what's happening. No but it is believed the video I have captured proves such theory.

I have several recordings, and some unrecorded playback as well. Of the act of swallowing multiple times a night during the times fogging is being supplied. The theory of rhis is that the breathed in particles cling around in the nasal cavity until a nasal drip is caused stimulating swallowing.

I have not observed this at night without the foggers going.


I personally fully believe this and here is why, it has been proven in the past that force hydrating, caused from prolonged periods of an old method of "showering" chameleons would cause involuntary swallowing reflexes as water poured into the nostrils, my thoughts are if it can be forced in with running water, why cant it be breathed in from tiny particles and swallowed in a similar manner. Manner of which I believe I have video of. This is personal speculation to the theory I've heard and made efforts to observe.

Thats a good point, and I brought that up in the comments as well. The condensation bringing the drinking, which in turn means we really cant prove, if they are becoming hydrated by the fog, or by the water they slurp up from the condensation that forms on them.


However the forced in, is where I take issue. As the premise of that was that we are "Forcing Showers" and "Forcing Drinking". It still rains in Madagascar, ALOT. I know Petr has said he has seen not seen Chameleons Drinking said rain water, and that from what he has seen they hide from it.

I had brought up to Petr my own testing on this. I turn most of the lights off, before a mist on my large viv. My chameleon has shown to be able to recognize what this means, similar to clouds in the sky. 90% of the time, I seen the same as Petr, the Chameleon will begin to move to a place he knows he can hide from the mist. However, sometimes he does not do this, sometimes he moves to to the mister, and sits front and center, to the closest mister he can get to, and waits for it to come on.

To contrast this, we have this.

https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

Now, I want to point out this is not an attack on Petr, or what he has seen (or not seen rather). Its simply a contrast in data, there is alot of things I have never seen, does that mean they do not happen? Or do not exist? Not in the slightest, so in this particular aspect, I am leaning to siding with Madcham. Half the team lives in Madagascar, they have more field hours, and thus more time where they could have witnessed a rarity, that does happen just not always.

I fully believe Petr has not seen this behavior, I do not think that means it doesn't happen, especially when Madcham says it 100% does. Especially when, in my own testing of a "Rain Alert System" I have seen the same thing.

 

[nightanole]

Understood, I misperceived the intent of the OP when reading the madcham data about the micron size of the water, which leads down a different path of implying they do not breathe anything in.

And no, the house humidifiers from what I understand and have seen owning some in the past once the water level for them reaches a level it cant run the disc safely they shut off completely. Fogger and fan run together and yes I see and understand the concerns here. Where water will stay and never dry in the tubing.

As "the guy" who services the whole house humidifier, i can chime in on this. Most of the whole house humidifiers fall into 2 categories. The Sub $500 units use a 90 day evaporator pad that gets replaced once a season. It gets fed cold tap water, and is only saturated during "most" of the furnace on cycle, and gets dried out by the end of the furnace cycle in most cases. Some more creative folk tap directly from the hot water tank to turbo charge it. The second on was mentioned above, the active units that boil water that cost around $1000. Both units are only meant to boost humidity an extra 10-15% tops. Infact the ductless $1000 units you have to "hack" with an external controllers, because the stock control stops at between 40 and 45% depending on the model.

 

[Taylor81]

Dangit @cyberlocc lol. Cause of my enthusiasm into this husbandry method you are provoking a non debater into the debate.

 

[cyberlocc]

Dangit @cyberlocc lol. Cause of my enthusiasm into this husbandry method you are provoking a non debater into the debate.

I wouldn't call this a debate, its a exchange of ideas . To try and find better ways, and safer ways, so we lead the noobs into safe directions where they dont have issues.

I am not worried about people such as your self using a fogger, you know your husbandry, you will know when there is an issue.

I am worried about Jimmy, who buys a amazon fogger, duct tapes a tube on it because he seen it on YT, and blasts the chameleon with a fogger that has never been cleaned until he kills it. Thats my concern here, and that is what I am trying to find a fool proof way, or idea that can fulfill the high night time humidity that we all I think agree is good, without leaving a trail of dead chams along the way.

As "the guy" who services the whole house humidifier, i can chime in on this. Most of the whole house humidifiers fall into 2 categories. The Sub $500 units use a 90 day evaporator pad that gets replaced once a season. It gets fed cold tap water, and is only saturated during "most" of the furnace on cycle, and gets dried out by the end of the furnace cycle in most cases. Some more creative folk tap directly from the hot water tank to turbo charge it. The second on was mentioned above, the active units that boil water that cost around $1000. Both units are only meant to boost humidity an extra 10-15% tops. Infact the ductless $1000 units you have to "hack" with an external controllers, because the stock control stops at between 40 and 45% depending on the model.

So then why you ask me? Messing with me huh, mhmmm I see you Night, I see you .

Thats why I linked that particular 1000 dollar model, it has a "Manual" controller, that will allow you to push to 100%, the cheaper model that requires home venting had the automatic version that only went to 45%. Or at least that is what I gathered when I was considering that idea.

 

[Taylor81]

I wouldn't call this a debate, its a exchange of ideas . To try and find better ways, and safer ways, so we lead the noobs into safe directions where they dont have issues.

I am not worried about people such as your self using a fogger, you know your husbandry, you will know when there is an issue.

I am worried about Jimmy, who buys a amazon fogger, duct tapes a tube on it because he seen it on YT, and blasts the chameleon with a fogger that has never been cleaned until he kills it. Thats my concern here, and that is what I am trying to find a fool proof way, or idea that can fulfill the high night time humidity that we all I think agree is good, without leaving a trail of dead chams along the way.

Unfortunately, in this respect I have to agree on the dangers. Because unfortunately probably 80-90% of your every day keepers... you know, the ones that worry about spending more than what their chameleon cost when they bought it.
Probably shouldn't practice this because they probably dont keep up with hygiene as is, let alone are willing to add an extra step of it.

In this mindset there is no 'fool proof' method unfortunately is my belief. We still constantly battle people not even finding out what lighting is proper, let alone the particulars of fogging at night, temp drops, etc.
So there will always be people that dont look into what they actually need to do, and will simply hipfire husbandry until a problem occurs.

It's an unfortunately inevitable fact regardless of what information is available. You will find those who dont find it or dont follow it properly.

 

[nightanole]

So then why you ask me? Messing with me huh, mhmmm I see you Night, I see you .

Thats why I linked that particular 1000 dollar model, it has a "Manual" controller, that will allow you to push to 100%, the cheaper model that requires home venting had the automatic version that only went to 45%. Or at least that is what I gathered when I was considering that idea.

I was hoping you had a magic evaporator pad solution

I havent had much luck finding a quality warm-mist humidifier/steam vaporizer. The only one i havent killed its the 1960's/70's harvest gold one that im pretty sure has killed several people from lack of safety