Food for Thought

[mika]

Stacey to clarify some things.

1. Basically what you're saying is, chams need preformed Vit A, either thru

#A. Gutloading crickets & other insects with chicken feed containing small amounts of preformed Vit A AND carrots, etc that contain average amounts of beta-carotene.

OR

#B. By administering a small dose of preformed Vit A

So, in essence, we all agree that chams need preformed Vit A?

I'm not concerned right now with the dosage right now because that makes it all the more confusing.

Proper gut-loading.
The article offered for suggested reading is a very good one, but should be read with a critical eye with an understanding of clinical trials. They found problems with chameleons when the crickets were not properly gut-loaded, when the cricket was purchased from pet stores and fed-off with a virtually empty stomach. Proper gut-loading includes: sweet potatoes, fresh greens, carrots, rolled oats, apples, ground legumes, oranges, corn meal, etc. The diets that resulted in low amounts of vitamin A were virtually all grain. Grains contain low amounts of carotenoids in general, let alone virtually no retinoids. Chicken feed, which is used by many breeders, contains low-ish amounts of preformed vitamin A.

This is what exactly is stated in the CIN article:

What is different in the diet of wild chameleons versus captive-raised chameleons that leads to Vitamin A problems?

Coke: Many clients purchase insects from pet stores or vendors & immediately feed them to their chameleons. Unfortuntely, many of these insects have not been properly fed at the pet store, thus not possessing the proper quantities of nutrients. In many instances many of the feeder insects are not fed at all and have defecated their entire gut contents and what nutrients are present within the rest of the body are consumed by a catabolic state.

Once captive prey insects have been properly fed a proper diet. i.e. "gut-loaded", then they may be equal or even superior to wild prey insects. The main nutrition of prey insect is the gastrointestinal contents. Gut-loading is accomplished by feeding the food insects a combination diet of sweet potatoes, fresh greens, carrots, rolled oats, apples, ground legumes, oranges, corn meal etc. Another food source for the food insects is commercial insect food preparations, grain mixes, or chicken feed found in co-ops and feed stores.

These food mixes must be free from any additive chemicals or medications

You're suggesting per #2 above to use chicken feed with preformed Vit A.

Isn't preformed vit A a chemical?

ALL research, that I have read, regarding the expression of VAD (vitamin A deficiency) state that a deficiency of vitamin A affects both eyes, first as night blindness, and potentially permanent blindness and scarring. Before affecting the eyes, VAD usually expresses itself as anorexia and dry skin (or as in the case for chameleons: excessive shedding).

Is this research on humans or chameleons?

As for the comment regarding the lack of liver for crickets, there is research that suggests that arthropods can convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters despite their very different bodies. They still possess the gene that produces an enzyme that symmetrically cleaves carotenoids for use as vitamin A. Because the cleavage is not complete, the absorption by animals that consume these arthropods either must possess the genes, and thus enzymes to complete the cleavage or they have reduced absorption and therefore exhibit signs of VAD. This indicates that the requirement for proformed vitamin A is much higher than that of preformed vitamin A to achieve the same results.

Referring to the sentence in bold, this is the controversy on whether chameleons can convert beta carotene to vitamin A, right?

Also, if I understand this correctly, if we gutload crickets with preformed vitamin A, the cricket would NOT need to convert this and therefore the whole dosage of preformed vitamin A that the cricket gets thru the chicken feed will go directly to the cham?

In my opinion, it's hard to guesstimate more when you gutload crickets with chicken feed containing preformed vit a because you would have to know how much each cricket is eating, how much your cham is eating.. etc

Can you tell us how you guys do it or what brand of chicken feed you use that contains preformed vitamin A?

10. Mika, you asked about your 3000 IU – is that the amount of an entire dropper or the amount that you are giving?

No, 3,000 IU is one drop. I empty the dropper & wipe the back of a 3 week old cricket with the dropper.

How much IU would you say that is?

Last but not the least, I think this is the end of my questions..

Which is better? Fish oil or Retinyl Palmitate?

I take it fish oil is toxic if overdosed on too since humans can od on it?

How long have you had your wild caught chameleons?

I'm not gonna even ask about dosages because of so much controversy concerning it.

And in regards to Jim Flaherty, I do believe he is speaking from experience since he has numerous chameleons.

If people here only have 1 or 2 and are having problems then he must have seen it more than us especially dealing with both wild caught & captive bred.

 

[mika]

Quantities of oil more than a drop or so, much less 2-3, they will respond to very negatively.

I have experienced the above in my chams as well.

Thank you very much Jim for contributing & taking the time to respond to this thread despite your busy schedule & the tons of chams you have to take care of

 

[Chameleon Company]

Last note before bed.

I see the use of chicken feed as a gutload mentioned here, and possibly recommended by Stacey, as she quoted it from others in her post.

There may be brands of chicken feed that contain retinal palmitate as the Vitamin A. I have written in several forums in the past about chicken feed. This is repeating what I have said there. We highly recommend against the use of chicken feed of any type as a gut load for crickets. Many chicken feds contain additives designed for chickens, but which have adverse effects on chameleons. This can include growth hormones designed for chickens. From experience, I can tell you factually that these additives are not always on the label. The results can be disastrous. The cricket will serve as a carrier for these unwanted additives.

Many feed stores can order you inexpensive quantities of cricket or worm feed, which are far less likely to contain additives. Every product is still a risk. Most are minimal risks. Chicken feed, in our experience, was too much of a risk.

 

[mczoo]

Jim,

Thanks for your imput. as i told my vet this morning knowlegde without experience can be dangerous, that is why i was there. This is not a slight on Stacey rather a description of me and a desire to learn from experiences of others. Obviously Jim you have found that chameleons suffered without pre-formed Vitamin A. (that's the type of imput i hoped to obtain from a poll)

How soon due you start suppliment of Vitamin A?

Thanks

Sean

 

[mika]

I'm sorry but I find Jim very funny.. that's just my sense of humor

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sean,

Just saw your question. Again, all this is an inexact science. Here's some of what we think and do:

1) We usually do not see evidence of Vitamin A deficiency in younger chameleons, that being those less than 30-40% of adult size. It does occur though, but at a much lower frequency than larger animals. Don't know why.

2) We begin dosing animals directly when they are at approximately 50% of adult size.

3) If we suspect a vitamin A deficiency, as evidenced by a single eye closing where we have minimized other possible causes, we will dose the animal with approximately 50 iu's per 100 g's daily for five days, then go to once every two weeks. If it is a Vitamin A deficiency, you usually see improvement by about day 3.

4) Beta-carotene seems virtually useless as a vitamin A precursor in chameleons. Many powder vitamins list large amounts of Vitamin A as beta carotene. It may have other benefits though.

Have to go. Good luck.