Foods/Multivitamins with Vit A??

[greenbean2424]

Does anyone know of any multivitamin with a decent level of vitA, foods with vitA, etc that I can give my girl. She seems to be deficient and I am calling the vet tomorrow once they open up again. They have been closed over a week now for the holidays. I know they may want to give a shot but if there's any easier less stressful way I can give her vitamin A orally myself that would be great. Thank you

 

[Beman]

So vitamin A is something you want to be very very careful with. You can overdose them if it is not done right. This includes the vet if the vet is not knowledgeable with chameleons.

What is going on that makes you think it is a vitamin A issue?

What are the current supplements and what is your rotation using them?

What is the current UVB lighting type, strength, and distance to branch?

Please post pics of your girl.

 

[Beman]

@MissSkittles tagging you in on this one in case I am not here when they reply.

 

[greenbean2424]

So vitamin A is something you want to be very very careful with. You can overdose them if it is not done right. This includes the vet if the vet is not knowledgeable with chameleons.

What is going on that makes you think it is a vitamin A issue?

What are the current supplements and what is your rotation using them?

What is the current UVB lighting type, strength, and distance to branch?

Please post pics of your girl.

Supplements: ZooMed Repti Calcium w/out D3 dusted every feeding, Phosphorous free Flukers ReptaCalcium w D3 dusted every 2 weeks, and Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin with beta-carotene once a month.
UVB: ZooMed Reptisun linear fluorescent 10.0 UVB , 7in away from nearest basking branch, all others are 11in +. Keep in mind I just bought this about a week ago. Beforehand I was using a Daylight blue heating bulb either 75 or 100w. I have been using just that for a while now.. over 6 months for sure.. under the impression it was UVB and heat in one. I just found out how damaging this bulb is for chams eyes and not to mention the overall lack of UVB for that long is freaking me out as I continue researching. I saw multiple other Cham owners recommending the Daylight blue and I really.. really wish I had done more research. The same day I bought new UVB I trashed the blue bulb and picked up a ZooMed 75W white basking bulb so she has both of those now. I was told on a separate post here to use a fluorescent house bulb instead but I didn't see the message until after purchasing, Whats your thoughts on that? Should I throw out my current heating and pick up a house bulb instead?

In the days leading up to Christmas my girl had mucus buildup in both eyes and was closing her eyes every now and then, for maybe 5/10 seconds tops as ive seen, during the day. She is a Veiled cham, 4/5 yrs old. I'd put her on her tree in the corner of my shower to let her clean her eyes and loosen up the (crusty) mucus in her eyes. First time I did it all the eye boogers turned to goop and slipped out easy. Seemed to be better, no more eye closing. Been showering her almost everyday since then, Thursday she had an eye booger in one eye, Showered her and was able to grab it with tweezers. Thursdays eye booger was very uncomfortable, I held a Q tip while she rubbed her eye on it because I caught her rubbing on a stick. Since Thursday no eye boogers, but occasionally closes that eye she rubbed on the stick.
Her eyes have been puffy and swollen looking. Sometimes you can see it, other times the puffiness disappears. The eye she rubbed on the stick was puffier than I have ever before seen it today when I got home. I showered her before her bedtime and it went down for now. She would not eat today or yesterday.
She is dull. I've read this to be a symptom of VitA deficiency however the dullness began the day she woke up from a procedure many months ago. She has been dull since and I don't know if that's just the way she is now after all the medicine and time at the vet or if its ongoing because she is deficient. I made a separate post here about her dullness where I described details of the procedure and named medications if you want to check it out.
Her grip lately has been very poor and she's fallen a few times. I thought it was old age, fixed up her cage so she won't be falling anymore, All this research I thought arthritis ..then I wonder if there's early stages of MBD.. then I see its a symptom for vitA deficiency.... She sometimes won't even use all her feet, and will stand on me with one leg just resting, gripping nothing. I am scared if she's in pain ,, or what..

I will post some pics. Just wanted to send this since its getting long. I have realized I've made mistakes in husbandry and have been misinformed and uneducated and seeing how that is costing her health and could possibly even affect her life.. I love her with all my heart and I feel so terrible. I will literally do anything to have her in good health

 

[greenbean2424]

@MissSkittles tagging you in on this one in case I am not here when they reply.

The first 3 pics is her eye booger, eye, and eye booger again on Thursday. Turned to goop in the shower and I grabbed it with my tweezers pretty easy after that.
Fourth pic was her swollen eye today. Lately her eyes seem have this loose looking skin around them? I don't know how to explain? But today it was so swollen on that one eye.

 

[greenbean2424]

@MissSkittles tagging you in on this one in case I am not here when they reply.

Heres some more of her, I have a few other pics of her in my post about the procedure I would recommend checking out. In that thread there is also a picture of her showing off her vibrant colors before the procedure. If you need any more or better pictures please let me know.
I wanted to mention her swollen looking wrists. She has had those for a very long time, her previous owner was neglectful and she was given to me with those as well as a very funky looking ribcage on one side. They never explained to me though it looks as if she broke her ribs somehow and it healed back very crooked. About her wrists I changed up her supplementation schedule and there hasn't been any progression or issue there since.

**In the picture of her sleeping its nighttime, just turned on my lamp to snap a pic real quick**

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. Not sure if @Beman is around. Give me a bit to fully digest everything.

 

[greenbean2424]

Hi. Not sure if @Beman is around. Give me a bit to fully digest everything.

Thank you so much.. Take your time.. though I will be calling the vet tomorrow to schedule an appointment for my green bean

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok. I have the tendency to be a quick reader and sometimes miss things, but I think I’ve read thru your info well.
Is it correct that until recently she had no UVB? If so, that would be the reason for her falling and being weak. UVB provides natural vitamin D3 which is needed to convert calcium to a usable form and be absorbed. We provide additional D3 in our supplements to ensure our animals are receiving enough. Calcium isn’t needed by just bones, but essentially everything.
Hoping I can explain this well. Vitamin D and vitamin A are antagonistic, meaning they basically work against each other. Both are fat soluble and therefore stay in the body and can build up to toxic levels if given too much. They need to be well balanced. Additionally, there are 2 different forms of vitamin A - proformed and preformed. It’s believed that chameleons aren’t well able to utilize proformed vitamin A, which is the beta carotene in your multivitamin. You want to use a multivitamin that has preformed, such as Reptivite or Repashy Supervite (can’t think of others atm). The correct and basic schedule for supplements is calcium without D3 at every feeding except one per week. Then for that one weekly feeding you’ll alternate between using calcium with D3 one week and the next use the multivitamin. This schedule will provide the correct balance of vitamins.
The problem with your sweet Green Beans eyes could be caused by any number of things, but I’m thinking it may be supplement related or she could have something like a keratin plug trapped inside. If supplement related, it should resolve on it’s own with proper care and supplementation. I advise against showering your cham. Besides the stress of it, temps that we perceive as lukewarm can be scalding hot to a chameleon. I also wouldn’t use anything sharp or metal near my cham’s eyes…or any other part of it. What you could do instead is give a very gentle ‘wash’ of the eye with some sterile saline…just drip the saline over the eye. To help remove any goop, a q tip moistened with the saline very gently dabbed would be ok. As you’ve already found, your cham will take the opportunity to rub her eye against the a tip as she wants. Of course, a visit to a vet experienced with chameleons is always a good idea.

 

[MissSkittles]

I forgot to ask, why you got the 10.0 uvb. 5.0 ReptiSun or 6% Arcadia is the standard for chameleons as it provides the ideal UV index at 8-9” away. If you’re using a T5 10.0, you’ll have to increase the distance between basking area and light to about 12”.
Also forgot to comment about your vine and the fake moss on it. Since veileds like to eat their plants, it’s best to only have safe and live plants for them. It only takes one nibble of a fake leaf to become impacted. I’d also be concerned about your sweet Green Bean rubbing her eyes against the fake moss and causing further eye problems with either scratching her eyeball or tiny particles breaking off and getting trapped in her eye (which may have already happened and is the cause for her eye problems).

 

[kinyonga]

I'm not a vet so I can only give you my best guess....but regarding hanging the leg down and not gripping as well, along with the swelling I think she has in her right wrist and also in her left arm....I think your chameleon might have gout.

This has nothing to do with the eyes though ...that could be a vitamin A issue since you're using Herptivite as the vitamin powder...but it needs to be confirmed by a vet.

As @MissSkittles indicated, there are two forms of vitamin A...prEformed and prOformed.

PrOformed comes from carotenoids/plant sources and prEformed comes from animal sources. The prEformed is the one you need to be careful with because it's ready to go and can be stored/build up in the body causing health issues...especially if not in balance with the D3 that comes from supplements. The prOformed source of vitamin A is converted by the body and cannot build up in the system...so it's safe...but it's questionable as to whether all/any chameleons can convert it or at least convert it well enough to be of use.

Just to explain...the D3 comes from two sources too...supplements...ready to go and able to build up in the system...and from UVB light sources...converted by the body into D3 and not likely to be able to be overdosed as long as he chameleon can mi e in and out of the UVB at will.

Hope you can get the chameleon back on track!

 

[Pickle-cham]

Reptivite by zoomed has preformed vitamin A within its analysis both with d3 or without d3

 

[greenbean2424]

I'm not a vet so I can only give you my best guess....but regarding hanging the leg down and not gripping as well, along with the swelling I think she has in her right wrist and also in her left arm....I think your chameleon might have gout.

This has nothing to do with the eyes though ...that could be a vitamin A issue since you're using Herptivite as the vitamin powder...but it needs to be confirmed by a vet.

As @MissSkittles indicated, there are two forms of vitamin A...prEformed and prOformed.

PrOformed comes from carotenoids/plant sources and prEformed comes from animal sources. The prEformed is the one you need to be careful with because it's ready to go and can be stored/build up in the body causing health issues...especially if not in balance with the D3 that comes from supplements. The prOformed source of vitamin A is converted by the body and cannot build up in the system...so it's safe...but it's questionable as to whether all/any chameleons can convert it or at least convert it well enough to be of use.

Just to explain...the D3 comes from two sources too...supplements...ready to go and able to build up in the system...and from UVB light sources...converted by the body into D3 and not likely to be able to be overdosed as long as he chameleon can mi e in and out of the UVB at will.

Hope you can get the chameleon back on track!

I have not been able to get into my account for the past week.
Okay so the soonest available vet appointment is the 19th. I am worried sick that its that long. I really believe you are right that she has gout. I didn't realize its been progressing. She hangs an arm or leg off her stick or just won't grip it more and more often now. She has fallen and slipped due to loose grip multiple times. I completely redid her cage again so its fall proof which has stopped falling/slipping issues completely so far and seems like she's more confident in her mobility. Athough she has her routine everyday of visiting different areas of her cage, she is less active. Its her two front wrists that are swollen. She grabs at her tail or legs sometimes.
Of course still waiting on the vet... but if she does have gout would it be best to put her down : ( ? I didn't know she's been in pain and I've read gout is an inevitable death sentence. I read the "final stages" of gout where its best to just put them down is when they're starting to hang a leg . Is this true..?
She always looks so happy I had no idea she's been in pain I just want her to have a good quality of life. Im reading about medicine to slow down the progression as well as pain medications being used for chams with gout. is it worth it to keep her alive ?
And here I was scared she's developing MBD or something. I don't know what's worse.

 

[greenbean2424]

Ok. I have the tendency to be a quick reader and sometimes miss things, but I think I’ve read thru your info well.
Is it correct that until recently she had no UVB? If so, that would be the reason for her falling and being weak. UVB provides natural vitamin D3 which is needed to convert calcium to a usable form and be absorbed. We provide additional D3 in our supplements to ensure our animals are receiving enough. Calcium isn’t needed by just bones, but essentially everything.
Hoping I can explain this well. Vitamin D and vitamin A are antagonistic, meaning they basically work against each other. Both are fat soluble and therefore stay in the body and can build up to toxic levels if given too much. They need to be well balanced. Additionally, there are 2 different forms of vitamin A - proformed and preformed. It’s believed that chameleons aren’t well able to utilize proformed vitamin A, which is the beta carotene in your multivitamin. You want to use a multivitamin that has preformed, such as Reptivite or Repashy Supervite (can’t think of others atm). The correct and basic schedule for supplements is calcium without D3 at every feeding except one per week. Then for that one weekly feeding you’ll alternate between using calcium with D3 one week and the next use the multivitamin. This schedule will provide the correct balance of vitamins.
The problem with your sweet Green Beans eyes could be caused by any number of things, but I’m thinking it may be supplement related or she could have something like a keratin plug trapped inside. If supplement related, it should resolve on it’s own with proper care and supplementation. I advise against showering your cham. Besides the stress of it, temps that we perceive as lukewarm can be scalding hot to a chameleon. I also wouldn’t use anything sharp or metal near my cham’s eyes…or any other part of it. What you could do instead is give a very gentle ‘wash’ of the eye with some sterile saline…just drip the saline over the eye. To help remove any goop, a q tip moistened with the saline very gently dabbed would be ok. As you’ve already found, your cham will take the opportunity to rub her eye against the a tip as she wants. Of course, a visit to a vet experienced with chameleons is always a good idea.

I have been unable to log into my account the past week. Green bean has a vet apptment the 19th. It was the soonest available : /
Yes. Until recently she did not have UVB. She has had it all of her life except a period where I thought daylight blue bulbs had UVB in them... All of this being said is it appropriate to guess her weakness/falling is because of the lack of UVB? Or at least party bc of it? Can she make a full recovery with this new UVB or at least become a bit stronger?
I say "partly" because Kinyonga brought up that she could have gout and I second that. Could the weakness really just be because of the time without UVB? A combination of both gout and that? Maybe not gout at all? I listed her other gout symptoms in my response to Kinyonga but don't they all fall into the same category of issues her time w/out UVB can cause?..
I feel like im making too many assumptions but I want to know for sure what's wrong with her and I don't fully trust that my exotic vet is knowledgable enough about chameleons to properly diagnose or treat her. I feel like I need to go in there with a clear idea of what could b wrong and knowledge about the treatment plan for every possibility so no mistakes are made ?? Maybe im making too many assumptions? Im freaking out honestly

Okay about the vitamins. How can I balance vet A and D in her diet ?
Changing her calcium/vit schedule to what you've mentioned.
Removed those mossy vines from her cage.
Looking to buy a Preformed VitA this week and get rid of my current beta-carotene one.
Could you tell me more about keratin plugs in chameleon eyes? I can't find much on it online. If the eye issues are supplement related do you have any idea how long before I start to see change with her new supplementation? Is it not possible the daylight blue bulb did this to her eyes?
Is Saline solution OK to use without vet recommendation?

 

[greenbean2424]

I forgot to ask, why you got the 10.0 uvb. 5.0 ReptiSun or 6% Arcadia is the standard for chameleons as it provides the ideal UV index at 8-9” away. If you’re using a T5 10.0, you’ll have to increase the distance between basking area and light to about 12”.
Also forgot to comment about your vine and the fake moss on it. Since veileds like to eat their plants, it’s best to only have safe and live plants for them. It only takes one nibble of a fake leaf to become impacted. I’d also be concerned about your sweet Green Bean rubbing her eyes against the fake moss and causing further eye problems with either scratching her eyeball or tiny particles breaking off and getting trapped in her eye (which may have already happened and is the cause for her eye problems).

Ooh.. I saw a YouTube video explaining a study done on veiled chameleons deeming the 10.0 Reptisun overall more effective than the 5.0 as long as her branches aren't too close.. I'll link it if I can find it again
I've removed the mossy vines. : (

 

[MissSkittles]

Oh boy! Lots of questions! I’ll do my best to answer them.
As far as I know, gout is not a death sentence for chameleons. It is treatable with medications that will decrease the uric acid (which causes the gout) and anti inflammatory for pain. Diet may also play a part, although for reptiles @kinyonga is better suited to answer how. Gout usually will show up/be diagnosed thru blood work and radiographs, both of which you should have your vet do. If you just recently added the uvb, the weakness is also most likely some metabolic bone disease. While any broken bones or deformity can’t be reversed once it occurs, it can be corrected with correct uvb and supplementation. It will take time and perseverance to overcome both of these things. If you have the willingness and resources, there is no reason that I can see that euthanasia would be an option. If for whatever reason (no judgement here) you aren’t able to put the time, money and work into your cham’s recovery, I would suggest rehoming before euthanasia.
Balancing the vitamins A & D is as easy as using appropriate supplements on the schedule appropriate for them. The calcium without D3 should be given at every feeding. Calcium with D3 should be used one feeding every other week, Multivitamin should also be given one feeding every other week (alternating with the D3). I use Reptivite which has preformed vitamin A in it. Depending on if your girl has mbd and the severity of it, your vet may prescribe a special supplement regimen.
Regarding eye health and problems, this is a great podcast to listen to…explains a lot. It’s episode 66. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-academy-podcast-2021/
Not all exotics vets are very familiar or up to date about chameleons, which is understandable. For the best husbandry guidelines that are the most accurate and up to date, follow what Chameleon Academy says. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-basics/
You can use a 10.0 uvb. You’ll just have to raise it a few inches so that it’s about 10-12” above basking area. Always provide lots of live plants so your cham can choose to take shade from the heat and lights. While I love YouTube as much as anyone, there’s few that I trust when it comes to care guidelines. Neptune the chameleon is the best.
I think I’ve answered at least most of your questions.

 

[greenbean2424]

Oh boy! Lots of questions! I’ll do my best to answer them.
As far as I know, gout is not a death sentence for chameleons. It is treatable with medications that will decrease the uric acid (which causes the gout) and anti inflammatory for pain. Diet may also play a part, although for reptiles @kinyonga is better suited to answer how. Gout usually will show up/be diagnosed thru blood work and radiographs, both of which you should have your vet do. If you just recently added the uvb, the weakness is also most likely some metabolic bone disease. While any broken bones or deformity can’t be reversed once it occurs, it can be corrected with correct uvb and supplementation. It will take time and perseverance to overcome both of these things. If you have the willingness and resources, there is no reason that I can see that euthanasia would be an option. If for whatever reason (no judgement here) you aren’t able to put the time, money and work into your cham’s recovery, I would suggest rehoming before euthanasia.
Balancing the vitamins A & D is as easy as using appropriate supplements on the schedule appropriate for them. The calcium without D3 should be given at every feeding. Calcium with D3 should be used one feeding every other week, Multivitamin should also be given one feeding every other week (alternating with the D3). I use Reptivite which has preformed vitamin A in it. Depending on if your girl has mbd and the severity of it, your vet may prescribe a special supplement regimen.
Regarding eye health and problems, this is a great podcast to listen to…explains a lot. It’s episode 66. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-academy-podcast-2021/
Not all exotics vets are very familiar or up to date about chameleons, which is understandable. For the best husbandry guidelines that are the most accurate and up to date, follow what Chameleon Academy says. https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-basics/
You can use a 10.0 uvb. You’ll just have to raise it a few inches so that it’s about 10-12” above basking area. Always provide lots of live plants so your cham can choose to take shade from the heat and lights. While I love YouTube as much as anyone, there’s few that I trust when it comes to care guidelines. Neptune the chameleon is the best.
I think I’ve answered at least most of your questions.

Thank you so much for answering my questions.. sorry for so many. Ive been spiraling and worried sick about her. I took these pictures of her tonight. She had eye boogers in both eyes today, one came out but the other eyes gunk will not budge so she cleaned her eye and left that red layer over it for a while. It looks just terrible

 

[MissSkittles]

For that eye, you really need a good vet to evaluate and treat.

 

[greenbean2424]

For that eye, you really need a good vet to evaluate and treat.

I am trying my best to find a good reptile vet in town but all I have so far is the same man that has treated her in the past and somehow thought she was a boy. Do you know of anyone else you could tag here for more opinions/advice ?? ;(

 

[MissSkittles]

What is your general location?