Fungus picture? Time to go to vet?

APailthorp

APailthorp

Member
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Ambilobe Panther, Male, about 18 months
  • Handling - Infrequently
  • Feeding - Crickets, loves pink wing stick bugs (fed blackberry leaves), keep trying to get him to eat a dubia but no go so far.
  • Supplements - Repashy Calcium Plus LoD on all crickets, most gets washed away. Crickets eat these multi-colored round pellets that were recommended by local vet (don't remember name right now) for calcium gut load.
  • Watering - Automated misting four times daily, multiple misting heads. Occasionally see lip smacking.
  • Fecal Description - Unknown, haven't seen poop lately. Had been pooping very nice, but occasionally and large.
  • History - None I can think of. I did lose a quad at the beginning of summer to what I think was a combination of a bacterial infection and heat stress. Non conclusive necropsy.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Dragonstrand screen with added three solid walls
  • Lighting - LYR tubes, measured UV in range
  • Temperature - ~65-70
  • Humidity - Unknown, live in humid temperate climate
  • Plants - Live
  • Placement - Living room wall
  • Location - Seattle

Current Problem - I'm trying to decide if I can keep watching this white area, or if I should schedule a visit to the vet.


white head

close up

upset
 
It could be the start of a shed, but he usually sheds pretty quick, in a couple of days, and this has been like that for at least 10 days I think. Watching...
 
hmm. If its been like that for 10 days i would start to think of a vet appnt. Im not to familiar with fungus but ik they can be dangerous.
 
How often and how much do you feed? I would really like to know the name of this "gutload" you speak of... it doesn't sound healthy.
 
I would not supplement with D3, even LoD, every feeding. They aren't really designed to process dietary D3 and whether giving it through dusting is any help at all is up for debate, but the fact that it can be and is harmful when given too often or too much at a time is not.
I would agree that the gutload, although recommended by a vet, is probably a poor choice. Unfortunatley, good gutloads just aren't available in a mass produced format.

Regarding possible fungus, I'd see a vet. It could be shed related, it could be an abrasion or burn, or it might be fungus. In any case, a quick diagnosis and treatment is always best and if it isn't something that needs to be treated, your bill shouldn't be prohibitive and you can use the opportunity to address the edema.
I suggest you eliminate all supplementation, aside from plain calcium, once or twice a week and set your mistings for 1 30min session every third day. This will allow plenty of drinking time, but allow drying of the enclosure and promote healing of any fungal infections, with treatment as prescribed by a vet. If that schedule makes you nervous, try every second day, but multiple, short mistings a day are not natural and not the best for allowing slow drinkers to really take their time drinking, as in a rainstorm. If your humidity is too low, misting for multiple, short sessions might be employed, but that should be couple with LOTS of ventilation, good lighting, and time to dry out, in between.
 
I didn't realize I had replies, wasn't getting notification... Thank you for all the information. I didn't realize how long my list of problems is. I guess I'm doing more than one thing wrong. He's got a vet appointment in about 38 hours.

Watering that infrequently? I may have to turn the sprayers off and on, not sure how much water I'll have to catch in a bucket for a long (unattended) watering but I will do as you suggest, one long watering every 72 hours.

The feeding is difficult. He eats crickets occasionally but seems to be ignoring them these days. If I put in a pink wing stick bug nymph, he'll eat it right away.

The crickets get T-Rex Calcium Plus pellets, kale and other fruits and vegs, cricket crack. Most of the fresh vegetables seem to just dry up, but do eat those pellets.

I will be reading up on edema later this evening.

Here's some video. Is closing one eye towards bright light in the evening a normal sleep pattern?


Thanks for the info, going to try to improve this situation. I'm having a bad time with feeders, got a colony of dubias, ignored, GBRs, colony not thriving... Can't find silks anymore, except for shipments of dead ones.
 
I don't mean to be defensive, but the reason I've been going with the LoD is because I'm not particularly successful at getting any dust at all into their diet. The crickets typically don't get eaten soon enough for much dust to be left, which is why I tried using a single dust. I can't be sure that a rotating schedule is getting administered. I have plain calcium and will set all the D aside.

A less frequent watering schedule will be great when I get that figured out. I have seen him licking early in the AM before the first watering, and I guess I'm wondering if that means he's not been drinking as much as he should when he should, and if when I see that it means I should take him for a longer shower...

I'm going to let the cage dry for at least 48 hours, but should I make sure he gets a long watering right away, tomorrow during the day before I get him to the vet on Thursday?
 
Cricket crack is good. I'd ditch the pellets. He may just be tired of crickets. You can try mantisplace.com and order some bluebottle fly pupae. Chameleons love flying insects.
eBay often has hornworms and silkworms in stock.
I think he's been oversupplemented for a long while. His eye being closed is less worrisome than the overall appearance of his eyes. He looks to be I'm need of a vet and I'm glad you made an appointment.
Your enclosure looks reasonably good, so you were on the right track, but a few minor errors can compound over time. Hopefully, once he gets good and flushed of any excess supplements, we'll see an improvement in his edema. The "fungus" really doesn't concern me too much. Whatever that turns out to be will be a short-term problem. Getting to the root of his edema and correcting the husbandry surrounding it should resolve all your issues, as long as there isn't organ damage. Panthers are hardy and with luck and a competent vet, you'll get on the right track.
 
Thank you for those tips. Definitely has a great appetite for the pink wing stick bugs, but they only eat blackberry leaves and can't be supplemented that I've found. I look for west coast suppliers to try to minimize shipping time, but pickings have gotten slim. Using eBay you can search by distance, and most everything is near a couple thousand miles away. I'll find some horn worms though, I haven't gotten any for a while. Sure would like to find good silks... (Not ready to try to raise them, dubias, GBR, pink wings, and now half a dozen adult ETs plus the hundreds of eggs they've given me are plenty.)
 
Have you tried coastal silkworms west coast? You can also switch to east coast too if west coast is out, on side sometimes has it if the other doesnt. They don't always have them in, but they have them more than other large suppliers and they have better stock than the smaller suppliers from eBay most of the time.
 
APailthorp said:
Thank you for those tips. Definitely has a great appetite for the pink wing stick bugs, but they only eat blackberry leaves and can't be supplemented that I've found. I look for west coast suppliers to try to minimize shipping time, but pickings have gotten slim. Using eBay you can search by distance, and most everything is near a couple thousand miles away. I'll find some horn worms though, I haven't gotten any for a while. Sure would like to find good silks... (Not ready to try to raise them, dubias, GBR, pink wings, and now half a dozen adult ETs plus the hundreds of eggs they've given me are plenty.)
Click to expand...

I live in Olympia. I can send you some blue bottle pupae for free (and flies as well) especially if you want to meet up with me in Olympia or Tacoma rather than shipping them. The pupae should be fine shipping. My chams loved the larvae but once they turned into pupae and then flies, my chams didn't want anything to do with them. I have about 250 larvae and about 25 flies.

Also, check out Nick Barta's feeders here on the forum marketplace as he lives in Washington as well and his feeders usually arrive overnight using regular USPS priority mail. He has all kinds of critters including stick bugs.

Finally, you might consider getting some silkworm eggs from West Coast Silkworms and some chow and raising your own silks. I do, and it's pretty easy and inexpensive for such good feeders.
 
APailthorp said:
I don't mean to be defensive, but the reason I've been going with the LoD is because I'm not particularly successful at getting any dust at all into their diet. The crickets typically don't get eaten soon enough for much dust to be left, which is why I tried using a single dust. I can't be sure that a rotating schedule is getting administered. I have plain calcium and will set all the D aside.

A less frequent watering schedule will be great when I get that figured out. I have seen him licking early in the AM before the first watering, and I guess I'm wondering if that means he's not been drinking as much as he should when he should, and if when I see that it means I should take him for a longer shower...

I'm going to let the cage dry for at least 48 hours, but should I make sure he gets a long watering right away, tomorrow during the day before I get him to the vet on Thursday?
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused about how you dust. I dust immediately before I feed them off. If they are healthy and hungry, they immediately eat what I put in. If some are left, they will get the dust off, but I try not to leave so many in that they are satiated when I get around to feeding (with dusted feeders).

As far as gut load, your goal is to feed your crickets a superior food so they are packed full of nutrition. Then, before feeding you want their intestines ("guts") full of more nutritious food. I can't think of a better "gutload" than fresh blackberry leaves. In my mind, nothing could be healthier for a chameleon than feeding on wild-caught insects fed wild food.

Let us know what the vet says. As far as edemas are concerned, I don't think there is much about it in the veterinary literature. I raise a species that is very prone to edema, and I can tell you that powdered vitamin and mineral supplements have a big impact on my animals. I've found something can build up in crickets that will trigger edema. Not all shipments of crickets have caused a problem, but I've seen a couple that did and I could turn edema on and off in my collection like a switch by feeding a particular shipment of crickets. Edema is also a symptom of some pretty serious and likely fatal disease processes/organ failure, too.

Edema in itself is not a problem. It is basically "retained water." The question is why is there an imbalance. You may never know.

Check his parasite load. The blood needs a specific protein to stay in the blood vessels where it belongs rather than seeping into the tissues (edema). If the parasite load is very high, he might be deficient of protein which could cause edema. I doubt that is your problems--protein deficiency--but it is worth looking at.

To try allay your fears, I have one T.q.quadricornis (which I see you have had some experience with) that was imported as an adult in December 2014. My vet and I refer to him as "He Who Would Not Die" because of the many many times we thought he would die and he just didn't, rallying back. I've scheduled appointments to euthanize/necropsy him that were cancelled at the last minute, instead trying one last ditch effort to save him that neither my vet nor I believe could save him. He had life-threatening crisis after crisis that my vet and I worked to pull him out of. He developed the worst edema I have ever seen. He was bloated from head to tail for months and months on end--he was so bloated I thought he would split his skin. My vet and I feared he has some kind of major organ failure, possibly kidney failure from being in a shipping box an extra day when imported. Then one day the edema just went away and basically stayed away. He continues to improve. Both my vet and I are looking forward to his necropsy--NOT his death!!!--to find out what the heck he was/is dealing with when he finally does die. He currently is in wonderful condition and I am even contemplating trying once again to get a breeding from him. Although he has had poor health in captivity, he has refused to die and rallied when we believed he couldn't. My vet and I think he has an incredible immune system and I really want some of those genes.
 
MeruJack and jajeanpierre,
Thanks so much for taking time to respond. I've lurked here a bunch, then gotten overwhelmed by the firehose of information (oft same sad stories and problems) and gone off somewhere else, but I've noticed some consistent good contributors, and both of you are those.

Yes, I know Nick, and have visited with him a few times. I traded him a bunch of dubias last spring. I got a single adult Extatosoma Tiaratum (ET) as a pet about a year ago, and now I have six of these huge bugs living in the pink wing stick bug cage and consuming blackberry at a copious pace. (Want one? Got blackberry?) Too bad they are too big now to feed off to the Henri, the Veiled I started with. They've given me a lot of eggs and if they hatch like their aunts did, I'll have a lot of nymphs in the spring to try and feed off before they get too big and I have to set them loose in a local bramble to fend for themselves. (Not going to keep even more adults next year.) Thank you for the blue bottle offer, we may work something out.

I've spent so much time thinking about bugs vs. lizards. I was mail ordering crickets, but got sick of the high mortality and am now buying live bulk crickets from Petco. They are at least consistently healthy. I did just go back to ebay and ordered some silks from someone in Nevada, "doossty66". Looks like a DIYer working with cut mulberry (not powder), we'll see how that goes.

The pink wing nymphs are great. I try to make sure Frank gets at least one a day, sometimes two. He's taken five at a sitting, I'm sure as many as I leave him, he'll eat. They aren't huge, so I present crickets too, which seem to be largely ignored. I've been only dusting the crickets, and they don't get the immediate attention that the pink wings do. He'll take those right off my hand sometimes. Unfortunately I can't raise enough, at least during these cold months, to make them what I think of as primary.

With respect to dust - I don't think either of them get a lot. That's part of why I wanted to try a combined dust. I don't think the dust is nearly as good as what I hope to do when I find the time and resources (where is a "Bugs R Us" that I can just go to and buy great feeders?) to feed them variety. I think the dust is a last ditch way for them to not be malnourished.

The biggest surprise in this check on my care is the idea that I'm not letting them dry out enough. I'm going to work on getting them to much less frequent misting schedule, 30 minutes of every 48 or 72 hours (still sorting this out, have program a week into 8 intervals) in a single misting instead of 10 minutes in four sessions over 24 hours.

What should I be pointing out to my vet tomorrow, other than my original concern about the white? I suspect she'll say retained shed, don't worry. Okay. Edema? What am I talking about? Please elaborate on the queues you see in the images above. You mean the baggy skin around his eyes? Thank you very much.
 
You are releasing non native insects into the wild? That is a huge red flag on what not to do. Stick insects are a major pest in the US and are actually illegal to own here even as feeders, the only reason we have them is because we feed them off to chameleons and don't release them into the wild. However it is highly illegal having them. For the very reason you described. If you have an excess you can't handle, you have to cull them, which is best done if you can't handle the thought of anything gory, by freezing them.
 
Thanks for the tip on culling method. They wouldn't do very well here, it's pretty cold and wet. I was kidding, never set any loose. Never intentionally that is, I have found one on my sleeve a while after after cleaning the bug cage. :)
 
I have found adult roaches crawling my various pants or clothing when I clean them usually that mamas, they are much more chill than the dad.
 
I wanted to clearify that my comment regarding longer mistings, every couple days was not a husbandry faux pas, as much as I recommended allowing during out, in case of a fungal infection. I don't see any harm with daily misting, though once a day for 10 mins and a weekly or twice weekly, longer duration misting is ideal, especially for slower to drink species. Panthers occupy coastal, sunbaked, scrub and will make use of water droplets and short mistings, for drinking. Longer sessions allow for more eye cleaning, simulate a rain storm, and are less disruptive to day to day life, than multiple, short, daily mistings.
I'm the event of fungus or skin injury, drying out some can help with healing and infection prevention.
Many keepers do the multiple, short mistings and I'm sure, unless humidity is too low, the feel this is the best practice. For me, I prefer to replicate nature and it doesn't rain for multiple short spells, every day. A quick shot at night, and in the morning, before lights out and lights on can simulate higher night time humidity and dew formation, but have a wet habitat over night, with possible skin injury or fungus is ill advised.
In short, you weren't making a mistake in your husbandry, but I offered different ways to tune your schedule to suit an animal that has edema and could use good, long drinks, to flush the system of built up supplement, toxins, and to allow the skin time to stay drier, if there is an injury or fungus. If he has retained shed and it isn't fungus, do as you will with your misting, but so add one day a week, at least, with a good, long, 30min+ misting or shower.
 
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