Furcifer Pardalis, Racial Question...

[SoCaliSon]

I was wondering if someone could link me to a site that has good desriptions and visual refence to the different Locales of Panther... With a map would be even better! The best refernce I have found so far is on the Screameleons website... But is pretty brief.

Reason being... I bought my guy McLovin as a Nosy Be/Ambilobe, and I always believed he resembled a blue bar ambilobe... He will be a year old July 7, and he had a great shed yesterday, when he was done... He was showing some new colors! His blue Bars are starting to look dark purple and I noticed something on him I never had before that started to confuse me a bit, He has a nice Dark Blue/Purple U on his back that is a lot more noticable now. I had always thought that this was a Sambava trait? I will try to get a pic up tonight... For now all I have is one from about 2 months back before his shed. The U was not as distint as it is now... but it is there. Thoughts?

I am of the oppinion that a Furcifer Pardalis is a Furcifer Pardalis regardless of where it is from or what colors they rock. I just think it is awesome that we have the option of different paint jobs.

I know we have no way of pinpointing exactly what local mix he is... I just thought it would be interesting to get some oppinions... Is it possible his Grandma got busy with a Sambava somewhere along the line... Or does that U just show up sometimes?

Another question... and I would like to have this as kind of a pole but can't figure out how to do it... I think Brad has to do it... but I will pose the question here. I am waiting for my Female Nosy to become receptive cause I was planning on breeding him becasue he is so gorgeous... Not trying to get rich... Just expanding my hobby, but I will need to be able to find homes for babies. Since I would be selling primarily to people on this site...How many of you would stray from buying a nice looking Cross compared to a suposed "True" Nosy or Ambilobe. I don't want to end up with a clutch of unwanted Chams. (I would keep them ALL if I didn't have a beautiful woman keeping my feet on the ground and my hobby in check.)
It seems like some really frown on Crossing, But it seems like this is the only reptile I have encountered so far in the industry where crosses sell for Cheaper. With snakes, Crossing like this is the key to getting the Morphs that EVERYONE wants.

Lets Hear It!!!

Edit: Oops forgot to show you a pic of McLovin'

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Where do I start? A lot of us wouldn't be bothered with a cross because we like to breed locales and try to keep that true. And you will find it difficult to sell them here or anywhere else. Most people don't trust breeders that cross breed from fear of buying a cross when you don't want one. You might find one or two people that would want one, but who knows if they would be forthcoming with there clutches as you are. I know that I would only buy specific locales from a reputable breeder. In this hobby reputation is everything.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Reptile Depot or LLL will always buy ur chams for wholesale should you not be able to unload them to people who want to buy cross chams; $20 per panther woo hoo!!! I stay far far away from crossed locals!!! I guess my vote would be a no.

 

[WEGSXXI]

McLovin is a good lookin panther and has a badass name haha kudos!

i just bought a pather cross from kammers (cross 84.375% Ambanja x 9.375% Tamatave 6.25% Nosy Be ) i cant wait to get him and see his colors if the half of what McLovins are i will be sattisfied!

What price are you selling the offspring for ? and what is the dam?

 

[SoCaliSon]

Thanks Dean and Chad... I always appreciate your input. Just to make it clear, Dean, you stated that "A lot of us wouldn't be bothered with a cross because we like to breed locales and try to keep that true"...You were meaning that alot of you would steer away from getting a cross, correct? It makes a lot of sense about not buying a specific Locale from someone who also breeds crosses... I could see how that could be a gamble. I do agree that rep is everything here, and the last thing I want is to produce a cross clutch and get accused of "polluting the marketplace". Or try to produce a true blooded Ambilobe later down the line with different stock and not be able to find buyers becasue people are worried they might be crossed. SIGHHHHHH... Man the decisions. I do understand the allure of a true blooded Locale.. but it bothers me a little when the maket revolves so much around that something that nobody can absolutley guarantee, they can only take thier best guess... But I guess it is what it is.

I don't think I would ever sell a lutch to LLL or Rep Depot... or any pet shop. why? Dunno... Just wouldn't feel right about it... I would want to make sure anyone buying my chams gets all the info and support they need... And I wouldn't rely on those places to provide that.

So the dilemma... McLovin Hasn't seen a female in over a month since the last time I tested her receptivness... And with what I am learning I may decide not to breed him at all...But the poor guy is Jonesing for some play... When I open up his cage to feed him he occasionally bobs his head at me.. With no other chams in sight. It's like hes beggin me to set him up with someone that will put out. I love this guy as a serious pet/part of the family... By far the coolest Cham I have owned to date, which is where my drive to breed him comes in. I would feel bad keeping him a virgin his whole life...

Thoughts?? Anyone know where I can buy Panther Blow up Dolls????

 

[SoCaliSon]

McLovin is a good lookin panther and has a badass name haha kudos!

i just bought a pather cross from kammers (cross 84.375% Ambanja x 9.375% Tamatave 6.25% Nosy Be ) i cant wait to get him and see his colors if the half of what McLovins are i will be sattisfied!

What price are you selling the offspring for ? and what is the dam?

Thanks Weggs! Appreciate the compliments.

I actually have not bred him yet... Still deciding if it will happen.. If it does I will definately let you know the particulars.

 

[mika]

Yeah, don't sell them to reptile depot. If you breed them, you want those babies to go to good homes and the depot is not the place for them to be

 

[CarolenRunsen]

I think to some of us less hard-core chameleon owners a cross would be pretty cool. I think it would be interesting to see how they turned out. Kind of a mistery as what it was going to grow up to look like. but maybe I am the only one...

 

[Dankmeleon]

imo people hesitate to buy panther chams because of the price.

you'll have to give a significant discount if you want them to go fast, or else you'll sell maybe one or two on the site and thats about it....


I imagine you couldn't charge more than 150 + shipping for a 3 month old and even that is pushing it!


however if you build a reputation and start a website, you can have those chameleons listed for a bit of a higher price and if your reputation on the board is good you are bound to get a few hits

that is why a reputable breeder can sell adult veileds for 175 +++

and here you'd have trouble getting 100 + for him unless he is special


other than that the whole thing about the crosses is pretty yesterday

the only people that care are cry babies, I always hear wahhhhhhh wahhhhhh who would want a cross bred panther wahhh wahhhh they are going to polllute the whole species and the people under then that get a cham are all going to get back to our breeding pool....the breeding pool does this naturally!

I don't know this for sure, but in the same life, a female may lay clutches from different locales of chams, which would mean the genetic variety just one female produces in life, is already higher crossed than that you'd be attempting in captivity, just don't sell to duechebags, thats where the problem starts, when people lower there price to garuntee a sale and at the same time they sell to jerky mcjerkjerk and he sells that female to someone as an ambilobe and then he pollutes his breeding program and gets pissed...

but for the most part, the average person just wants a chance to own a cross that is unique...

just my two cents....

 

[joefarah]

McLovin is a good lookin panther and has a badass name haha kudos!

i just bought a pather cross from kammers (cross 84.375% Ambanja x 9.375% Tamatave 6.25% Nosy Be ) i cant wait to get him and see his colors if the half of what McLovins are i will be sattisfied!

What price are you selling the offspring for ? and what is the dam?

That breakdown of percentages of each locale is seriously the funniest thing i've read/heard all day. Please tell me the Kammers didn't tell you that... lol.

 

[Kent67]

Ed and Liddy keep records on all the bloodlines that they breed. Although you and I may not agree with the use of locality terms as they are now, those are the percentages they use to advertise their animals. Guess that blows that whole East Coast bred to West Coast produces infertile animals theory out of the water, eh?
http://chameleonsonly.com/panther_crosses.htm

 

[mika]

That breakdown of percentages of each locale is seriously the funniest thing i've read/heard all day. Please tell me the Kammers didn't tell you that... lol.

Where have you been? I've always seen that on their website

K, I'm outta here... I've seen threads out there..

 

[ChrisnLisa]

Do places like that really only pay you 20 dollars a panther? Even purebloods? If so it makes sense why they are selling all of their stock so cheap!

 

[Dankmeleon]

I would like to see specialized breeding in chameleons like we see in snakes and other species where breeding programs in the u.s. are light years ahead of cham breeding.

like this snake

http://carolinekhu.com/blog/leucistic_python.jpg

i'm not into advanced breeding so much, i'm struggling enough with basics, but it fascinates me all the possibilities out there

I don't know for sure, but I have heard people doing all types of tests crossing, backcrossing inbreeding etc

I don't know the ethical issues or benefits of doing any of those things, but I'm sure for science and research, done by scientists to learn more about a species, that these practices are not frowned upon to further our knowledge, however if you started trying to inbreed your panthers and post about it on the forum, i'm sure it wouldn't go over so well

 

[SoCaliSon]

I agree Dank... When people started messing with the genetics of snakes, a lot of the community was up in arms... But look at how it has been accepted and expanded over the years... And look at the beautiful morphs we have as a result... Then at the way the Market turned to favor Morphs completely... Now people are paying rediculous amounts of Cash on a single morph. It just seems like people have not yet ventured that far into it with Chams... But I have a feeling we could see some really cool stuff in the future. You are right about the flak that comes along with trying stuff like that though... But the pioneers always catch a lot of flak in the beggining. I don't consider myself experienced enough to try any kind of specialized breeding like that ... But I bet there are a few people in the shadows working on exactaly that as we speak. I can't wait to see what happens with the Cham market in the next 20 years to see if this whole allure of the "Pure Locale" sticks around as more and more CB is done... because with more and more CB comes more and more potential for Crossing... With this crossing taking place I have a feeling we might discover a new "look" somewhere down the road that everyone will HAVE to get... offsetting the demand for pure lines. I don't know... Just thinking out loud... Thanks for the input guys... keep it coming.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Do places like that really only pay you 20 dollars a panther? Even purebloods? If so it makes sense why they are selling all of their stock so cheap!

Maybe a lil more than $20... But eh... thats why it is *wholesale*. I dont, but its an option should nobody want to buy from you...

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Personally , I would never knowingly breed a cross or knowingly buy a cross. If a breeder wants to breed mutts , thats their perogative. I just hope they sell them and represent them genuinely. I know of at least one breeder that sells mutts as pure locales.

Trying to get my head around these mutts, as snakes are often crossed, just conjures up visions of crossed dogs, such as cockapoos and labradoodles. Freaking disgusting mongrels!

If that floats your boat then so be it . You couldn't give me one .

Hows that for whining Dank....LOL...wahhhh... have another beer.. its the weekend.....cheers

 

[Dave Legacy]

I see nothing wrong with cross-bred F. pardalis, for pets, as long as they're properly identified. I'm not as concerned about them when they come straight from the original breeder, but more concerned with how much of thier origin gets lost in translation from owner 1, to owner 2, to owner three and so on.

Cross = Good Pet
Cross = Bad breeder

 

[WEGSXXI]

blow up dolls!

try a clown ... they make ballon animals or goto exotic erotics in san diego! hahaha jk (I COULDNT HELP MYSELF)

 

[Dean Pulcini]

No the locales are pretty true due to geographical obstacles such as mountain ranges and different islands chameleons cant swim from Island to Island or to the mainland. The only thing that confuses everything are sellers or breeders that don't care about the chameleons only the money. Sure cross breeds may become popular in the future but I think that will only strengthen the demand for pure locales especially if we cant get WC out of Madagascar in the future due to extinction.