Genetics class log

[phantomchameleon]

Might as well share what i learn about lizard genetics while we're in this unit and log everything.

Common reptilian genetics knowledge seems to not exceed past punnet squares and basic repressive-dominant trait understanding. Most of that stems just from... we don't know enough about them and can't test them properly. Reptiles don't even really have a set in stone way for determining sex. Temperature dependent sex determination is actually really interesting.
The species that rely upon temperature for their sex determination do not have the SRY(Sex-determining region Y) gene. They instead have some other genes such as DAX1, DMRT1, and SOX9 that are expressed or not expressed depending on the temperature! Alligators and some geckos are this way. A more complicated example would be an Australian skink. Their initial sex is determined by chromosomes but temperature of incubation can combat that.
Funny thing is we don't actually know where this sex determining system evolved from for certain.

Chameleons are a complete other story when it comes to reptile genetics. Studies confirmed that they were not relying on temperature sex determination. Both the ZW and XY systems have been used for reptiles but we dont know what exactly to use when it comes to chameleons.
I know everyone hates it when i bring Slurpy into conversations and this will be a doozy for you all but, yknow, education.
Slurpy has only some parts of the female sex organ. They have ovums so they can technically lay eggs but I have no idea if they will be able to actually push out the eggs but they'll probably have to be surgically removed. They will never be fertile though. They do have testis and a hemipenis. They're a little bit chub in the back end just from feel, i guess that's just from everything being shoved into a tiny body. They have smaller spurs and they have vibrant coloration like males when females usually dont show very much variation with colors. Most of the times he's just green with very slightly darker stripes. Everything else is kinda female when it comes to outside appearance.
We dont exactly know what's wrong with him or what happened to him during the federalization process to be this way. If chameleons do use the ZW system, he may be a WW but that's EXTREMELY unlikely as WW's never come to term.

That's all i feel like writing about for now, this is very basic stuff so it's good to start out with

 

[jajeanpierre]

Might as well share what i learn about lizard genetics while we're in this unit and log everything.

Common reptilian genetics knowledge seems to not exceed past punnet squares and basic repressive-dominant trait understanding. Most of that stems just from... we don't know enough about them and can't test them properly. Reptiles don't even really have a set in stone way for determining sex. Temperature dependent sex determination is actually really interesting.
The species that rely upon temperature for their sex determination do not have the SRY(Sex-determining region Y) gene. They instead have some other genes such as DAX1, DMRT1, and SOX9 that are expressed or not expressed depending on the temperature! Alligators and some geckos are this way. A more complicated example would be an Australian skink. Their initial sex is determined by chromosomes but temperature of incubation can combat that.
Funny thing is we don't actually know where this sex determining system evolved from for certain.

Chameleons are a complete other story when it comes to reptile genetics. Studies confirmed that they were not relying on temperature sex determination. Both the ZW and XY systems have been used for reptiles but we dont know what exactly to use when it comes to chameleons.
I know everyone hates it when i bring Slurpy into conversations and this will be a doozy for you all but, yknow, education.
Slurpy has only some parts of the female sex organ. They have ovums so they can technically lay eggs but I have no idea if they will be able to actually push out the eggs but they'll probably have to be surgically removed. They will never be fertile though. They do have testis and a hemipenis. They're a little bit chub in the back end just from feel, i guess that's just from everything being shoved into a tiny body. They have smaller spurs and they have vibrant coloration like males when females usually dont show very much variation with colors. Most of the times he's just green with very slightly darker stripes. Everything else is kinda female when it comes to outside appearance.
We dont exactly know what's wrong with him or what happened to him during the federalization process to be this way. If chameleons do use the ZW system, he may be a WW but that's EXTREMELY unlikely as WW's never come to term.

That's all i feel like writing about for now, this is very basic stuff so it's good to start out with

@phantomchameleon I read through your other posts but this was the thing I found the most intriguing.

You claim your chameleon is an hermaphrodite. These mistakes do happen in animals, including humans.

Why do you say your Slurpy has some "female sex organ"? Which organ and how did you confirm its presence?

Please explain what you mean by this statement:
"They're a little bit chub in the back end just from feel, i guess that's just from everything being shoved into a tiny body. "

I can't quite understand some of the other things you are suggesting because it is written so poorly. The reason there are rules in grammar is so that language is precise and everyone understands exactly what ideas are being conveyed. Since you are doing a paper on reptile genetics, you might think about using the English language such that you actually say what you mean to say.

I'm guessing you are suggesting your chameleon is showing both male and female secondary sex characteristics for a veiled chameleon. Is that the point you are trying to make?

What tests/imaging/surgical procedures have you had done to prove your hypothesis that Slurpy is an hermaphrodite?

Did you know that some female veileds have small spurs?

There is probably no way to determine that Slurpy is an hermaphrodite unless you actually open her up and look for and find both male and female sex organs--ovaries and testes in the same animal or a gonad that is composed of both ovary and testes (in the same gonad). An MRI might show you that as well. Small spurs noted by a novice chameleon keeper are not good enough.

Genetic testing is problematic. In most birds (and I believe many reptiles) the W gene is unique to females. Males do not have a W gene. The Z gene is common to both male and female, so a female is WZ and a male ZZ. The absence of a W in a genetic test on birds does not guarantee the animal is male, only that the test didn't pick up its presence in that sample. As far as I know, there is not genetic lab doing sex testing on reptiles. If there were, the Meller people would be thrilled and I think it would be known.

In humans, the default physical state of a fetus is female. (I have no idea what the default is for veiled chameleons.) It takes an hormonal event at a certain stage in development of the fetus for the female structure to change to male. If that hormonal event fails, the baby is born with secondary sex characteristics of a female even though the baby is genetically male. Mistakes like this do happen. There is no denying the existence of hermaphrodites, but for you to claim you have one based on very little evidence is a stretch.

You also state: "We dont exactly know what's wrong with him or what happened to him during the federalization process to be this way." Who is "we"? A vet? Vets in general know zero about reptile genetics and almost nothing about sexing chameleons. I assume your "federalization" was supposed to read as "fertilization." Really, if you truly have an hermaphrodite, you have absolutely no way of knowing when or why that mistake happened.

The one thing about science--and you are suggesting that you are approaching this using a scientific process--is that scientists us Scientific Method. I suggest you get a truly good understanding of what Scientific Method means and how to apply it to your paper on reptile genetics. Anything I have read from you, from the care you give your animal to this claim of her being an hermaphrodite suggests you have very little understanding of science, scientific method, the English language, or chameleon keeping in general.

I wish you luck on your paper. I would be interested to read it.

 

[phantomchameleon]

@phantomchameleon I read through your other posts but this was the thing I found the most intriguing.

You claim your chameleon is an hermaphrodite. These mistakes do happen in animals, including humans.

Why do you say your Slurpy has some "female sex organ"? Which organ and how did you confirm its presence?

Please explain what you mean by this statement:
"They're a little bit chub in the back end just from feel, i guess that's just from everything being shoved into a tiny body. "

I can't quite understand some of the other things you are suggesting because it is written so poorly. The reason there are rules in grammar is so that language is precise and everyone understands exactly what ideas are being conveyed. Since you are doing a paper on reptile genetics, you might think about using the English language such that you actually say what you mean to say.

I'm guessing you are suggesting your chameleon is showing both male and female secondary sex characteristics for a veiled chameleon. Is that the point you are trying to make?

What tests/imaging/surgical procedures have you had done to prove your hypothesis that Slurpy is an hermaphrodite?

Did you know that some female veileds have small spurs?

There is probably no way to determine that Slurpy is an hermaphrodite unless you actually open her up and look for and find both male and female sex organs--ovaries and testes in the same animal or a gonad that is composed of both ovary and testes (in the same gonad). An MRI might show you that as well. Small spurs noted by a novice chameleon keeper are not good enough.

Genetic testing is problematic. In most birds (and I believe many reptiles) the W gene is unique to females. Males do not have a W gene. The Z gene is common to both male and female, so a female is WZ and a male ZZ. The absence of a W in a genetic test on birds does not guarantee the animal is male, only that the test didn't pick up its presence in that sample. As far as I know, there is not genetic lab doing sex testing on reptiles. If there were, the Meller people would be thrilled and I think it would be known.

In humans, the default physical state of a fetus is female. (I have no idea what the default is for veiled chameleons.) It takes an hormonal event at a certain stage in development of the fetus for the female structure to change to male. If that hormonal event fails, the baby is born with secondary sex characteristics of a female even though the baby is genetically male. Mistakes like this do happen. There is no denying the existence of hermaphrodites, but for you to claim you have one based on very little evidence is a stretch.

You also state: "We dont exactly know what's wrong with him or what happened to him during the federalization process to be this way." Who is "we"? A vet? Vets in general know zero about reptile genetics and almost nothing about sexing chameleons. I assume your "federalization" was supposed to read as "fertilization." Really, if you truly have an hermaphrodite, you have absolutely no way of knowing when or why that mistake happened.

The one thing about science--and you are suggesting that you are approaching this using a scientific process--is that scientists us Scientific Method. I suggest you get a truly good understanding of what Scientific Method means and how to apply it to your paper on reptile genetics. Anything I have read from you, from the care you give your animal to this claim of her being an hermaphrodite suggests you have very little understanding of science, scientific method, the English language, or chameleon keeping in general.

I wish you luck on your paper. I would be interested to read it.

It wasn't really a paper, more just a log for me just to get my thoughts down and what i've learned and maybe share it with people.
There definitely is not in depth genetic testing for reptiles. The tests that the Animal Sciences and genetics department in Rutgers didn't show really anything of use(which is what i meant by 'we'. I'm affiliated with Rutgers). Also calling it a department is very iffy. It's not really a department it's just mainly a program for graduates and undergraduates but it's very interesting!
I had one of my close friends bring in their female and male veiled chameleon, felt around their back ends, and we felt very different sex organs in them. With Slurpy, we felt something completely different. When Slurpy does pass, as horrible as it sounds, the first thing we're going to do is do a necropsy and find out what their sex organs are. We did feel a distinct testi in Slurpy that the Male chameleon had but that was about all we could really say about that. We haven't conducted any other interior testing. I don't know if we can do an MRI on chameleons, if it has been done I just didn't know.

Another thing i forgot to mention, I did a mirror test. How they would react when put infront of a mirror and we also tried to see how Slurpy would react to the male and female veiled chameleon that were brought in.

Test one was putting Slurpy 1 foot away from a mirror. They had some branches surrounding them so they could climb if needed, and I just left them there to do their thing. They puffed, and they seemed to do a courtship dance. They rocked back and forth, making themselves look bigger. They didn't strike at the mirror, instead just staying put for the most part. Sadly we didn't record videos but we wrote down the results.
Test two and three were putting Slurpy one on one in an enclosure and seeing how Slurpy would react to actual chameleons and not a reflection.
The results for this one were definitely intriguing!
With the male, Slurpy showed dis-interest, puffed up and gaped, hissed, raising up and showing the male a defensive posture. The male responded with the same and they actually struck at each other. We ended that before it got too far and injured either party.
With the female, Slurpy was back to the courting dance, rocking back and fourth, the whole gig. The female didn't like it very much and was very displeased with Slurpy's display of affection.

On another day we tested the male with Slurpy again and the reverse happened it seemed. The male was trying to court Slurpy while Slurpy was basking, showing no interest in the males displays.

If you have any sort of input on to what this could mean, feel free! I'll try to answer your other questions another time. I'm in the middle of math at the moment. I'm glad you're interested in this topic!

 

[Theveiled]

I am very intrigued at this topic! I know NOTHING on reptile genetics so sadly cant offer any help, but I'm interested in what you find out!

 

[jajeanpierre]

It wasn't really a paper, more just a log for me just to get my thoughts down and what i've learned and maybe share it with people.
There definitely is not in depth genetic testing for reptiles. The tests that the Animal Sciences and genetics department in Rutgers didn't show really anything of use(which is what i meant by 'we'. I'm affiliated with Rutgers). Also calling it a department is very iffy. It's not really a department it's just mainly a program for graduates and undergraduates but it's very interesting!
I had one of my close friends bring in their female and male veiled chameleon, felt around their back ends, and we felt very different sex organs in them. With Slurpy, we felt something completely different. When Slurpy does pass, as horrible as it sounds, the first thing we're going to do is do a necropsy and find out what their sex organs are. We did feel a distinct testi in Slurpy that the Male chameleon had but that was about all we could really say about that. We haven't conducted any other interior testing. I don't know if we can do an MRI on chameleons, if it has been done I just didn't know.

Another thing i forgot to mention, I did a mirror test. How they would react when put infront of a mirror and we also tried to see how Slurpy would react to the male and female veiled chameleon that were brought in.

Test one was putting Slurpy 1 foot away from a mirror. They had some branches surrounding them so they could climb if needed, and I just left them there to do their thing. They puffed, and they seemed to do a courtship dance. They rocked back and forth, making themselves look bigger. They didn't strike at the mirror, instead just staying put for the most part. Sadly we didn't record videos but we wrote down the results.
Test two and three were putting Slurpy one on one in an enclosure and seeing how Slurpy would react to actual chameleons and not a reflection.
The results for this one were definitely intriguing!
With the male, Slurpy showed dis-interest, puffed up and gaped, hissed, raising up and showing the male a defensive posture. The male responded with the same and they actually struck at each other. We ended that before it got too far and injured either party.
With the female, Slurpy was back to the courting dance, rocking back and fourth, the whole gig. The female didn't like it very much and was very displeased with Slurpy's display of affection.

On another day we tested the male with Slurpy again and the reverse happened it seemed. The male was trying to court Slurpy while Slurpy was basking, showing no interest in the males displays.

If you have any sort of input on to what this could mean, feel free! I'll try to answer your other questions another time. I'm in the middle of math at the moment. I'm glad you're interested in this topic!

As far as I know, you can't palpate for testes and even if you could, you wouldn't know what you are feeling. Believe me if it was as simple as palpating for testes, the Melleri people would be thrilled! If no one can palpate the testes of an animal that weighs over 500g, why do you think you could on something 1/10th the size? Did you even look at where the testes are located? You can't palpate there and even if you could, why do you think you could tell the difference between an ovum, egg, testes or a bolus of half digested food in the intestines? They are all about the same size and shape and density. Melleri people often sex using imaging techniques--nobody palpates anything.

I really doubt you have any clue what you are feeling and what normal feels like. You seem to be poking around just making it up as you go along on a living animal rather than learning the animal's physiology and natural history from a text book first and then applying what you've learned to a living animal. It is a gross misuse of a living creature to do what you are doing. Your attitude to the suffering of this animal is why PETA hates labs using live animals.

Your interpretation of the chameleons' behavior and their reaction to each other is also really off. If you are setting up some kind of a behavior experiment, it behooves you to first learn what is the natural behavior of the species you are studying first. Learn from what is already known and expand on the known.

I can tell you right off that a female does not do a "courting dance" by rocking back and forth. That's a defensive posture. If you can't recognize even that very obvious behavior, you won't see the subtleties of breeding behaviors.

I hope you just leave this poor animal alone and let it recover. On the other thread, people were very angry with you for tormenting your chameleon and after reading what you have written to me, I have to agree. You really are tormenting her.

I say all this with no malice.

Do you understand what you are doing to this animal?

You are stressing her horribly. When an animal is stressed, there is a physiological cascade of events that happen internally and are invisible to the eye. One is the release of cortisol which suppresses the immune system. That is why stressed chameleons get sick and die. Very few sick chameleons recover in the hands of a novice. On top of that, you are dealing with an animal with MBD, which for most female chameleons is a death sentence. They die a painful, horrible death.

When you understand the totality of what you are doing and how others see it, you will have a better understanding of why there has been so much backlash on your other thread.

Again, I cannot stress enough, I say this with no ill will towards you. You seem too young to understand some of the consequences [to the animal] of what you are doing.

 

[phantomchameleon]

As far as I know, you can't palpate for testes and even if you could, you wouldn't know what you are feeling. Believe me if it was as simple as palpating for testes, the Melleri people would be thrilled! If no one can palpate the testes of an animal that weighs over 500g, why do you think you could on something 1/10th the size? Did you even look at where the testes are located? You can't palpate there and even if you could, why do you think you could tell the difference between an ovum, egg, testes or a bolus of half digested food in the intestines? They are all about the same size and shape and density. Melleri people often sex using imaging techniques--nobody palpates anything.

I really doubt you have any clue what you are feeling and what normal feels like. You seem to be poking around just making it up as you go along on a living animal rather than learning the animal's physiology and natural history from a text book first and then applying what you've learned to a living animal. It is a gross misuse of a living creature to do what you are doing. Your attitude to the suffering of this animal is why PETA hates labs using live animals.

Your interpretation of the chameleons' behavior and their reaction to each other is also really off. If you are setting up some kind of a behavior experiment, it behooves you to first learn what is the natural behavior of the species you are studying first. Learn from what is already known and expand on the known.

I can tell you right off that a female does not do a "courting dance" by rocking back and forth. That's a defensive posture. If you can't recognize even that very obvious behavior, you won't see the subtleties of breeding behaviors.

I hope you just leave this poor animal alone and let it recover. On the other thread, people were very angry with you for tormenting your chameleon and after reading what you have written to me, I have to agree. You really are tormenting her.

I say all this with no malice.

Do you understand what you are doing to this animal?

You are stressing her horribly. When an animal is stressed, there is a physiological cascade of events that happen internally and are invisible to the eye. One is the release of cortisol which suppresses the immune system. That is why stressed chameleons get sick and die. Very few sick chameleons recover in the hands of a novice. On top of that, you are dealing with an animal with MBD, which for most female chameleons is a death sentence. They die a painful, horrible death.

When you understand the totality of what you are doing and how others see it, you will have a better understanding of why there has been so much backlash on your other thread.

Again, I cannot stress enough, I say this with no ill will towards you. You seem too young to understand some of the consequences [to the animal] of what you are doing.

There was a noticable difference between their courting posture and the defensive posture. Both were completely different with different colors and stances.
This all was more than a week ago.

 

[jajeanpierre]

There was a noticable difference between their courting posture and the defensive posture. Both were completely different with different colors and stances.
This all was more than a week ago.

@phantomchameleon Can you describe their courting behaviors for me in a detailed way?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Was this after she got out of the hospital?

 

[WAMBO]

BTW, hermaphrodites are typically sterile.

 

[alphakenc]

@phantomchameleon ,I browse through alot of ur threads,being a kid like u,its hard sometimes to understand others opinions since the mind is always settle with what u wana hear but nothing else,alphakenc I was like that when I was younger,and I can still be the same way sometime,I guess every kids can be different growing up in their own unique way....
Judging by ur hair color,flaming red(so does Ozzy Osborne's kids)...to me you are a kid like to express urself which is cool,but when the things doesn't go with what u planning to be.....ITS TIME TO CHANGE N IMPROVE....I like ur careless expression cause I can related to u with my own,but I will suggest if u hear the different members...lots members are saying the "Samething" over n over again ,will it be great if u can open your mind bit more n except the opinion n fact especially when u are along with a clear mind.
Keep on learning, sharing n do not hesitate to LIsten n except others with the open mind,it will be the strength n knowledge as u get older n wiser to keep in ur youthful life!!

 

[Sticktongue]

Deleting what I posted as to not start another riot and locked thread.. I'd delete the post completely but don't see an option for it.

 

[Angelwolf]

Are you serious!? How exactly are you "affiliated" with Rutger's University? From reading this thread, I can conclude that you have no idea of what's appropriate husbandry. You are abusing and torturing this poor animal! And I believe that you are actually try to kill her, based on your own words, "the first thing that will be done when Slurpy dies is a necropsy." Why would you even say something like that?! You are a very sick individual, who can't make up your own mind as to what gender you want to be, and now you are conveying that onto this poor animal who most certainly does not deserve to be the victim of your so called "experiments." This is not a place for kids who are seeking attention. This is a place for real chameleon enthusiasts to collaborate with, and learn from, each other. This is why you are being met with such adversity. You don't know what you are doing, and clearly don't care. Oh, and tell your alter ego, @trixiedixie we all said hi.

 

[phantomchameleon]

Are you serious!? How exactly are you "affiliated" with Rutger's University? From reading this thread, I can conclude that you have no idea of what's appropriate husbandry. You are abusing and torturing this poor animal! And I believe that you are actually try to kill her, based on your own words, "the first thing that will be done when Slurpy dies is a necropsy." Why would you even say something like that?! You are a very sick individual, who can't make up your own mind as to what gender you want to be, and now you are conveying that onto this poor animal who most certainly does not deserve to be the victim of your so called "experiments." This is not a place for kids who are seeking attention. This is a place for real chameleon enthusiasts to collaborate with, and learn from, each other. This is why you are being met with such adversity. You don't know what you are doing, and clearly don't care. Oh, and tell your alter ego, @trixiedixie we all said hi.

Because I go to their university part time...? You're seriously trying to pick at straws. Half of this doesn't make sense. How about you PM me about this so we can talk this out formally and not to clog my class log.

 

[Angelwolf]

Sorry, but I am calling b.s.on you having any connections to Rutgers University. How old are you? I would like to see your transcripts then. Only then will I believe a word you say. And even if you take classes "part time", as you say, that by no means gives you the privilege of calling yourself"affiliated".

 

[Angelwolf]

And your class log doesn't belong on a public forum if you don't want others to speak about it.

 

[alphakenc]

Lets be nice to each other during this holiday season,high blood pressure with heart attack is a number one killer in united states,it always take 2 to tangle....
U wrote n I laugh....u wrote more n I laugh more cause we already know the outcome,I like my earth to be round not square,round and round goes around....no need to square off n ruin a beautiful day!!

 

[Decadancin]

I grow very tired of this. I will suggest that if you have no use for the claims and information here that you simply move on to the next topic (from other members). As for the personal attacks, they will not be accepted here on the forums. If you do not keep arguing these threads will simply go away.

As for the OP, please stop making unsubstantiated claims as true fact. You are only asking for these attacks. You do not need to prove anything here. Also, read over the forum rules very carefully. This is NOT in order to point out what others are doing, but so you are aware.