Georgie's Not Well

[Georgies momma]

Hi. My female veiled, Georgie is not doing well at all. She is approximately 5 months old and up until 4 days ago, was thriving. I returned home from work on Friday to find her hanging upside down by her tail (which was wrapped around a twig in her enclosure) digging in the back corner of her enclosure. I also noticed she had not eaten any of her worms either and her eyes were closed. I took her out of her enclosure for a few minutes and put her on a fake plant, bought just for her to be out of her enclosure, and placed her in the shower, which was set at a light mist, for about 15 minutes. When I took her out and attempted to put her back into her enclosure, I noticed she was very stiff and eyes sunken. I have scoured my town for hero vets and no one here deals with herps. After reading several posts on this site, I have tried a supplement called ReptiBoost ( formerly ReptiAid) exactly by the directions for the last 2 days but there has been no marked improvement. She has no drainage from her nose, does not appear to be wheezing, but does flinch a bit when I palpate her abdomen. I do not feel any eggs though & her abdomen is not distended at all. HELP!

 

[Creaturelover123]

If you filled this out it would be the most helpful.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are VERY helpful

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi! Welcome to the forums. I'm so sorry that Georgie is doing poorly. I strongly recommend you complete the "How to Ask For Help" form. Just click that link, copy the questions, paste them into a reply and add your answers. Be specific. Use brand names for supplements and lights if possible. "Fecal description" means "tell us what the poop looks like". Please do not say "normal" because we don't know if you know what "normal" is. Humor us by describing it (or better yet, post a picture of it). Post pictures if at all possible. Pictures of the chameleon, pictures of the set up, pictures of the room the enclosure is in....it's amazing how many times the answer starts with "do I see a ..... in your room?"

Do you have a laying bin in there for her? I know you've felt around for eggs but I think she should have a bin regardless. If she's digging, give her a good place to dig.

 

[Georgies momma]

Georgie's info

Chameleon Info:
My Chameleon - Veiled, approximately 5 months old, have had her since April 28th*
Handling - only as needed to clean her enclosure once a week and once in a while to bring her out to hand feed her
Feeding- combination of small crickets, mealworms and wax worms. Approximately 10 crickets, or 15 - 20 small mealworms daily. She did not like the wax worms. I usually put her crickets or mealworms or both in her bowl in the morning right after her lights go on at 9:30 am daily and may put 5 or so more in at night if her bowl is clean. I am using a calcium/vitamin dust on both crickets and worms, via a shaker the pet store i purchased her from's recommendation.*
Watering - Combination of a drip system that my fiancé put together for me (he found the idea on a chameleon website), and I mist her plant (a grape ivy that I researched and found to be nontoxic according to a website listing safe plants for chams) about 3 or 4 times a day. I also had a small water bowl in her enclosure that i used until yesterday when my fiance said he read that chams should not have them. However I have seen her drinking out of it many times and I gave her fresh water in it and cleaned it daily. I have watched her licking the leaves of her plant as well.
Fecal Description - white on one third and dark brown the rest. Has has very large decals lately. Iam not aware that she was ever tested for parasites by the pet store I purchased her from. She was about 8 weeks old when I got her.
History - she has been an absolute joy since I got her. Healthy appetite, textbook in growth, feeding, activity all very good. Up until this last Friday, that is. That's when things seem to have went terribly wrong.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - cage is a combo of plexiglass & screen. Dimensions are 12x12x24. I know that's edging on the small side for her and just ordered a 65 gal screen Reptarium for her last Thursday, that is supposed to be here in the next 7-10 days.
Lighting - Using ExoTerra combo light fixture w/ ExoTerra basking bulb and day heat bulb. daily lighting schedule: both heat & basking lights are on a timer set for 9:30am *on & 9:30pm off
Temperature - Temp ranges from 88deg F at top down to about 80 down by her food/water bowls during the day. Lowest night temp has been 72 deg F. Have a thermometer/hygrometer digital combo attached on one of the sidewalls of her enclosure.
Humidity - Range is anywhere from 85% down to 53% at the lowest. I maintain by misting multiple times throughout the day, as well as a drip system. My thermometer/hygrometer combo measures for me and has been very accurate.
Plants - Using a live grape ivy that I found to be on the safe Cham plant list I got from a website on chams
Placement - Cage is in my bedroom on a table that is the same height as my vanity dresser, in a corner. There is a ceiling fan in my room that we use quite a bit and from all we have read over the last few days, it's not something that would cause any issues for Georgie. *
Location - located in southeast Minnesota*

Current Problem - Very lethargic. Not eating on her own. Not going potty. Flops over on her side when I put her back in her enclosure. Eyes appear to be a bit sunken. Skin seems to be good at times and rather wrinkled at others over the last few days.

 

[Georgies momma]

To Elizadolots

Could she be ready for the egg laying thing already if she's only 5 months old? I thought that didn't start until around 8-12 months. Wow, if that's the case! I will definitely get some pics in the morning. Fiancé is sleeping and with her being in our room, don't think he would quite appreciate me flashing pics at this time of night, lol! Also, the brand name of the ReptiBoost supplement, recommended for stressed, dehydrated, new chams is Flukers. I use Rep-cal calcium/vitamin supplement, per the Petsmart reptile guy's recommendation. Cage and lighting are ExoTerra, as well as the coconut husk substrate.

 

[Elizadolots]

I think your temps, over all, are a bit high. I'm not saying that's the cause of the problem, but I do think you want to reduce them. I would try for 83ish at the basking spot dropping to the mid to low 70s at the bottom of the cage.

That is a small cage for her, I'm glad you have a new one on the way.

I repeat: do you have a laying bin in for her?

Can I ask about the timing of the lights? Do you just want her to be awake in the evening so you can look at her? I would suggest having the lights set a bit closer to "sun up, sun down" times...so, maybe 7 to 7? Again, I doubt that's a huge issue, but it might be contributing.

 

[Elizadolots]

Could she be ready for the egg laying thing already if she's only 5 months old? I thought that didn't start until around 8-12 months. Wow, if that's the case! I will definitely get some pics in the morning. Fiancé is sleeping and with her being in our room, don't think he would quite appreciate me flashing pics at this time of night, lol! Also, the brand name of the ReptiBoost supplement, recommended for stressed, dehydrated, new chams is Flukers. I use Rep-cal calcium/vitamin supplement, per the Petsmart reptile guy's recommendation. Cage and lighting are ExoTerra, as well as the coconut husk substrate.

oops...simultaneous postings...yes, at 5 months she could have eggs. We've seen cases of chameleons laying at 4 months on this board. The fact that you are keeping her warm makes it more likely that she's produced eggs.

This board recommends calcium without D3 daily. D3 2x/month, multivitamins 2x/month. That's probably very different from what your store recommended but it's based on people with a lot of years (decades) of experience so I think it's a good plan.

 

[Georgies momma]

Reply to Elizadolots

I do not have a laying bin for her. Not even sure what all I would need for one as I guess, in my ignorance, did not expect that this could be an issue since she is so young and no male around. Guess we live and learn. I am just so scared I will lose her as this is my first chameleon. I have raised finches, cockatiels and parakeets all of my adult life and due to some issues with my last cockatiel and my stepson, sold my bird and decided to get Georgie, who I did not know was female until about a month ago. I have several websites bookmarked and have a few books on chameleons also but I think having this forum available has been the biggest weight off my shoulders since Friday! Thanks for caring enough to reply and advise!!!!!

 

[Elizadolots]

I do not have a laying bin for her. Not even sure what all I would need for one as I guess, in my ignorance, did not expect that this could be an issue since she is so young and no male around. Guess we live and learn. I am just so scared I will lose her as this is my first chameleon. I have raised finches, cockatiels and parakeets all of my adult life and due to some issues with my last cockatiel and my stepson, sold my bird and decided to get Georgie, who I did not know was female until about a month ago. I have several websites bookmarked and have a few books on chameleons also but I think having this forum available has been the biggest weight off my shoulders since Friday! Thanks for caring enough to reply and advise!!!!!

Been there, done that.... That's why I hang around. I'm hoping to help others avoid what happened to me. They can lay eggs even if they have not mated, just like birds. Your experience with birds will serve you well.

Because your enclosure is small, you can't really put a full laying bin in her cage. She needs at least 12 inches depth of sand for a good laying bin. So, what you want to do it provide her a "digging space" where she can tell you it's time to transfer her to the laying bin. I'm going to provide you a link to Jann's laying bin blog but be aware that you do not need to use as large a bin as she does. Your animal is smaller, you can scale things down. But you'll get important information.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html

Have a laying bin ready for her, put a shallow bin in the enclosure for her to start exploring and if she does, move her to the laying bin.

 

[Georgies momma]

Thank gosh I am off work again tomorrow! I will go to my pet store and pick up those supplements tomorrow. Also, we rigged a light stand out of an old outdoor plant stand to hang her lights. I will work on raising it up a few inches tomorrow. We found a pretty ingenious way to get Georgie into some natural sunlight during the day, as well. I have a collapsible laundry basket that has cloth mesh and we put an old tshirt out on our picnic table, place Georgie's favorite silk plant pot on the shirt (with Georgie in it) and place the basket over the plant. The basket is about 15" across and 36" tall. She has a beautiful view and she seems to move more freely out there. My biggest concern now though is definitely rehydrating her. I read on at least 2 websites to soak her in Pedialite, as well as dribbling some in her mouth. Is that something you would recommend?

 

[laurie]

Hello, welcome to the forum. Sorry Georgie's is feeling poorly. A couple questions. Your light, you talked about a daylight and a heat light. Is either of those a uvb light? That is very important. Next do you have a substrate of cocohusks on the bottom of her cage? Chams can easily ingest the substrate and it can cause an impaction. I would take it out and use nothing as a lot of us do, or use a layer of paper towels on the bottom. It is possible she has eggs but I would doubt it. But it never hurts to cover all the possibilities. When you can get a picture that will help a lot. Also I forgot, when was the last time she pooped and did it look normal?

Hope all goes well tonight, we will try to help more tomorrow. If you tell us where you are geography one of us may know a vet near where you are.

 

[Elizadolots]

Those pop up hampers make great outdoor enclosures. That's good thinking.

I'm not convinced that they can absorb nutrients through their skin. I firmly believe all animals can absorb some liquid through their skin but from what I've read here, chameleon skin is pretty impervious.

I think a lot of misting might be a better choice. When you have her out in the hamper, can you mist her? If so, I'd say try to mist a good half gallon of water on her 2 times a day and a quart of water 2 times a day.

If you do decide to soak her, I don't honestly think that pedialyte would be better than purified water.

I would watch your water though. If your city fluoridates, you might not want to use the city water.

 

[Georgies momma]

To Laurie: yes my basking light is a UV light and yes I use coco husk. But will stop using it if that's possibly the cause.also, the last time she pooped, it was a lot larger than usual but looked normal otherwise. Her tummy does feel a bit hard though n she winced when I was feeling it. Gently feeling, of course. Any advice on curing impaction?

To Elizadolots: I only use distilled water for Georgie as I was told the chlorine in our city water would be bad for her, more so than the flouride. Any advice on if she might possibly be impacted?

 

[Georgies momma]

Also, I will snap some pics of he tomorrow morning. Hopefully she will work through whatever is bringing her down because I sure do like the lil girl! I'm the only one in my home who can handle her without her hissing at them, lol! Will post pics in the morning. thanks for all the advice & have a great night!

 

[Dr O]

I personally think your little girl needs a vet visit if she has shown the signs to the degree that you have mentioned for over 36 hours-------there's too many questions in my mind right now re: parasites/foreign body ingestion/eggbound. I hope tomorrow morning she looks all bright and perky, but I'm troubled overall about some of the things that I'm reading and do think she needs some knowing hands on her right now.

keep us posted, please!


dr o—

 

[Georgies momma]

I unfortunately have called all the vets where I live, including vets within a 45 mile radius and none of them deal with herps... My next call is to the twin cities (Minneapolis/st Paul) and, my next paycheck doesn't come until next week, if there is going to be a huge vet bill, unfortunately. I am calling my pet store where I purchased her to speak with their resident reptile pro and see if he has any suggestions. I am pretty limited on funds but am willing to try anything I can to get by until I can make the trip, if I can find a vet.

 

[blackened]

A few things (bare in mind I'm not nearly as experienced as others who have commented):

1) I would suggest you improve on her feeders. Mealworms have a very bad Calciumhosphorus ratio and a very hard exo-skeleton which make them hard to digest. Wax worms aren't very nutritious either (poor Ca ratio and very high in fat). Recommended feeders include silkworms, hornworms, butterworms, cockroaches, crickets, mantids....... Variety is your friend.

It's also very important to gutload your feeders properly. The basis of vitamins and minerals should be provided by a good gutloading schedule.

Sandrachameleon has lots of interesting information on feeders & gutloading in her blogs. Here's one of them: link

2) Could you clarify what supplements you are using? Is it a calcium/multivit all-in-one?

 

[Elizadolots]

I look forward to seeing pictures. Of course, Dr. O is right that a vet is the best option, but it seems that's not open to you at the moment. I strongly repeat my suggestion on getting a laying bin in there.

 

[Georgies momma]

I do have an update! One of the vet clinics I called called me back and one of their new vets does see reptilians! I have an appointment this afternoon at 3pm. I have a few pics I took this morning and will be taking a pic of he outdoor enclosure we just put together as well. Will post that once I snap the pic. Wait...how do I upload? It just asked me for the URL...

 

[Elizadolots]

That's good! To upload pictures use the POST REPLY button (not the convenient Quick Reply Box). There you will have more tools. One is a paperclip. Click that and follow the prompts to upload your attachment. You will not be able to see it in your preview. It only shows up when you "SUBMIT" the post. It will show as a thumbnail in your post which expands when we click it (so, don't resize the picture to fit the screen!).