Getting Frustrated. He's barely eating and stays hiding.

[andrearamirezo91]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male amilobe panther. He's about nine months old and has been in my care for 4-5 months.
• Handling - Once every 1-2 weeks.
• Feeding - Crickets and super worms mostly. I gutload my crickets with kale, oranges, , and the occasional veggie scraps that are on the safe list. We eat a lot of vegetables at our house so I vary his gutloading ingredients a lot. Also Fluker's orange cubes and calcium fortified quencher (I know these aren't very useful. I don't have a lot left and once I run out I will be purchasing cricket crack). Occasionally I'll feed him a wax worm as a treat.
• Supplements - Not sure of the brand at the moment, but I can add this once I get home. I dust his food daily with calcium w/o D3. Herpivite Multivitamin and Calcium with D3 every two weeks. I just do both D3 and multivitamin the same day.
• Watering - ReptiRain mister goes on every 3 hours for 60 seconds.
• Fecal Description - Brown, solid. White/cream colored urates. No signs of dehydration and parasite-free according to his last test 2 months ago
• History - Bought him at a reptile store. They said he's captive bred and was shipped from Europe. I don't know anything about his lineage.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Zoomed Reptibreze. Acrylic front, screen sides and top.
• Lighting - Not 100% sure of the brands either, but he has a linear UVB suggested by the store owner. I can add more details later if necessary. Also a 60W heat lamp. I have a timer that turns on at 7am and off at 7pm, where I plug his mister and all his lights.
• Temperature - 85 Basking, 74 ambient
• Humidity - 50-60%. He has live plants in the cage and reptibreze rains on them throughout the whole day.
• Plants - Two pothos, one schefflera, and a bromeliad
• Placement - Base of the cage is elevated approximately 3ft off the floor. He's in a guest room with very low traffic. Lovated right next to a window which he loves looking at. I constantly find him on the side screen by the window.
• Location - Ft Lauderdale, Florida.

Current Problem - He hasn't touched crickets in about two weeks. They have walked over him and he doesn't even move. He's barely eating his super worms either. I bought a thing of horn worms and he ate one on Saturday and one on Sunday, which was a relief because I was finally able to get some supplements in him. On Monday he didn't eat his hornworm and he hasn't eaten since. There's two kids that are usually not home that will be with us for at least another month. It's the only thing that has changed, but they've already been with us for a good two weeks. He's hiding a lot and not eating and I'm getting pretty worried. He seems very stressed and scared most of the time and runs to hide as soon as he sees a person, even if they're very far away.

Edit: The pic of the cage was when I had just set it up. The plants have grown and offer a lot more coverage now. If requested I can post another pic when I get home of the cage as it is right now and its surroundings.

 

[jamest0o0]

That's about the time they slow down eating. Mine have gone the better part of 2 weeks without eating during the summer before. It's often scary for us because we're used to them eating everything as jueveniles. They are also much more likely to hunger strike for favorite foods(supers, waxworms, etc) during this time. Change feeding to every other day.

As for your husbandry, not bad at all. I would suggest a long misting session early when lights go on and an hour before lights out. Days are often hot and dry where they come from. 60 seconds isn't long enough IMO. They seem to be more prone to dehydration catching up with them as they age. I suspect in time you'll start to see yellow/orange urates at 60sec sessions. Also kale and oranges aren't a great gutload, a very small amount is fine, but kale is high in goitrogens and oranges are high in sugar. You say you mix it up though, so that's good. I just wouldn't feed too much sugar, cruciferous vegetables, or high oxalate vegetables.

 

[andrearamirezo91]

That's about the time they slow down eating. Mine have gone the better part of 2 weeks without eating during the summer before. It's often scary for us because we're used to them eating everything as jueveniles. They are also much more likely to hunger strike for favorite foods(supers, waxworms, etc) during this time. Change feeding to every other day.

As for your husbandry, not bad at all. I would suggest a long misting session early when lights go on and an hour before lights out. Days are often hot and dry where they come from. 60 seconds isn't long enough IMO. They seem to be more prone to dehydration catching up with them as they age. I suspect in time you'll start to see yellow/orange urates at 60sec sessions. Also kale and oranges aren't a great gutload, a very small amount is fine, but kale is high in goitrogens and oranges are high in sugar. You say you mix it up though, so that's good. I just wouldn't feed too much sugar, cruciferous vegetables, or high oxalate vegetables.

Thank you for taking your time to go through my post. I tend to write a lot lol.

There was a post regarding hand misting a few days ago. I went through it and participated a little and decided I was gonna start hand misting again. I'll follow your advice and do a long misting session in the morning and before lights off. ​

That definitely makes me feel better. I actually haven't bought crickets in around two weeks because he wasn't even touching them so they'd be in the cage for days and I was afraid of them biting him. Also the crickets my LPS got for their last batch were HUGE. The super worms have been getting away lately and digging into the soil I have his plants in. I can hear them eating away in there but I have no way of finding them so it's gotten extremely annoying. I wonder if my plants will be okay.

Also, is the basking temp okay? I thought for basking it was kind of low, but the 75W bulb I was looking at said if the basking spot was around 6-8inches away from it the temp would be 100 degrees. It scared me so I went for the 60W instead.

 

[jamest0o0]

Everything seems good to me!

 

[andrearamirezo91]

Thank you

 

[CharlieCharmingo]

Hey, hey, I'm glad everything worked out for you. I just wanted to comment on the supers thing, if they are in the dirt of his plants then you should't worry. They usually don't disturb or try to bite at the cham while he's sleeping. If you wait a couple of weeks they'll turn into beetles and resurface then you can see if your little guy is a beetle lover. Also, I hand mist as well and sometimes Tony starts drinking right away and sometimes it can take anywhere up to ten+ minutes. I feel bad for getting so wet so now we have a routine where I take him out to explore while I mist his plants really good, then I put him back in and do another misting and depending on if he started drinking right away or is shedding etc. varies how long the second misting will be.

 

[andrearamirezo91]

Hey, hey, I'm glad everything worked out for you. I just wanted to comment on the supers thing, if they are in the dirt of his plants then you should't worry. They usually don't disturb or try to bite at the cham while he's sleeping. If you wait a couple of weeks they'll turn into beetles and resurface then you can see if your little guy is a beetle lover. Also, I hand mist as well and sometimes Tony starts drinking right away and sometimes it can take anywhere up to ten+ minutes. I feel bad for getting so wet so now we have a routine where I take him out to explore while I mist his plants really good, then I put him back in and do another misting and depending on if he started drinking right away or is shedding etc. varies how long the second misting will be.

Hey Charlie thank you so much! The worm thing kept bugging me lol but that definitely makes me feel more at ease. He is still not eating and I'm not really sure why. I've been so meticulous about making sure his husbandry is on point. He's not even touching the hornworms now which are his favorite treat. I might take him to the vet next week if he keeps this up. I rather be safe.

 

[CharlieCharmingo]

Hey Charlie thank you so much! The worm thing kept bugging me lol but that definitely makes me feel more at ease. He is still not eating and I'm not really sure why. I've been so meticulous about making sure his husbandry is on point. He's not even touching the hornworms now which are his favorite treat. I might take him to the vet next week if he keeps this up. I rather be safe.

Yea it's best to be safe than sorry. I hope everything goes well with your vet visit!

 

[cyberlocc]

Thank you for taking your time to go through my post. I tend to write a lot lol.

There was a post regarding hand misting a few days ago. I went through it and participated a little and decided I was gonna start hand misting again. I'll follow your advice and do a long misting session in the morning and before lights off. ​

That definitely makes me feel better. I actually haven't bought crickets in around two weeks because he wasn't even touching them so they'd be in the cage for days and I was afraid of them biting him. Also the crickets my LPS got for their last batch were HUGE. The super worms have been getting away lately and digging into the soil I have his plants in. I can hear them eating away in there but I have no way of finding them so it's gotten extremely annoying. I wonder if my plants will be okay.

Also, is the basking temp okay? I thought for basking it was kind of low, but the 75W bulb I was looking at said if the basking spot was around 6-8inches away from it the temp would be 100 degrees. It scared me so I went for the 60W instead.

Im going to differ from james a bit,

I am going to say mist 30 mins before lights on, and 30 mins after lights out, and fog during the night. As that is the new suggestion being thrown around by the more advanced members of our hobby, the book writers, the biologists and the vets that make up the enthusiast Fbook group. James likes Petr Nectas, and that is his current suggestion. Thats only for the Dry season, James is half right, its very dry and warm days half the year, the other half is very hot and very rainy.

If you want to recreate the Wet, then add a third mist during the day, like it was rain, and disable your basking lights 30 mins prior to that mist, and dont turn them on till 30 mins after. Might want to only do that, half the year though. Whether you match the season to ours, or do it based on yours is up to you.

Me and james were discussing regioning the other day as there is conflicting info. However even if we go with the "Decidous Forest" area, like Ambilobe, we still see quite a bit of rain.

According to this https://www.worldweatheronline.com/ambilobe-weather-averages/antsiranana/mg.aspx, Ambliobe the city sees 5574mm of rain per year, that is double the 2500mm needed to be considered a Rainforest. And they get more rain in driest month of their dry season, than my town gets all year long.

They do however, have a dry season, its warm (not hot) and there is no rain, and lower (still high at night) humidity. Now warm to me, and warm to someone else is different things, I grew up in Pheonix AZ, so warm to me is anything under 100 lol.

So either way, Water is a big deal. Also as Petr pointed out on Fbook the other day, Chameleons die in the dry season, so be careful with how dry, you dry.

 

[jamest0o0]

Im going to differ from james a bit,

I am going to say mist 30 mins before lights on, and 30 mins after lights out, and fog during the night. As that is the new suggestion being thrown around by the more advanced members of our hobby, the book writers, the biologists and the vets that make up the enthusiast Fbook group. James likes Petr Nectas, and that is his current suggestion. Thats only for the Dry season, James is half right, its very dry and warm days half the year, the other half is very hot and very rainy.

If you want to recreate the Wet, then add a third mist during the day, like it was rain, and disable your basking lights 30 mins prior to that mist, and dont turn them on till 30 mins after. Might want to only do that, half the year though. Whether you match the season to ours, or do it based on yours is up to you.

Me and james were discussing regioning the other day as there is conflicting info. However even if we go with the "Decidous Forest" area, like Ambilobe, we still see quite a bit of rain.

According to this https://www.worldweatheronline.com/ambilobe-weather-averages/antsiranana/mg.aspx, Ambliobe the city sees 5574mm of rain per year, that is double the 2500mm needed to be considered a Rainforest. And they get more rain in driest month of their dry season, than my town gets all year long.

They do however, have a dry season, its warm (not hot) and there is no rain, and lower (still high at night) humidity. Now warm to me, and warm to someone else is different things, I grew up in Pheonix AZ, so warm to me is anything under 100 lol.

So either way, Water is a big deal. Also as Petr pointed out on Fbook the other day, Chameleons die in the dry season, so be careful with how dry, you dry.

How is that differing from me? A early misting session and one at night is exactly what petr necas was talking about. I told you about him before you were even aware of his findings. Even with lights on at those times, the temperatures are still low(where I live at least, which is what matters). Just a couple days ago you had no idea this was even a thing... dont throw me under the bus on something that I taught you about, I was humble enough to be corrected where I was wrong on subjects.

 

[jamest0o0]

And also, just because animals survive things in the wild doesnt make it ideal. Most yemens apparently(though I've only heard this) die during the dry season, should we recreate this? No probably not, even though it's natural. Should we add floods, dry heat waves, etc? Nature is unforgivable, why do you think animals survive 7+ years in captivity and 1-2 usually in the wild? Hot and humid= a breeding ground for bacteria in general. Just because they face it at times during the year doesnt make it necessary to replicate.

No intention to derail this post into an argument, i have a family to deal with as it is lol. just gets annoying when people throw information around that you put them onto, a few days later. Maybe I took it the wrong way though, if so my bad... I have a newborn, stress is maximum

 

[cyberlocc]

How is that differing from me? A early misting session and one at night is exactly what petr necas was talking about. I told you about him before you were even aware of his findings. Even with lights on at those times, the temperatures are still low(where I live at least, which is what matters). Just a couple days ago you had no idea this was even a thing... dont throw me under the bus on something that I taught you about, I was humble enough to be corrected where I was wrong on subjects.

You need to go back and re-read that thread my friend. You didn't teach me about that.

You are correct, I didn't know about Petr Nectas said that, 100%, but I told you about it after all you said was don't run the fogger during the day. I said that I got the idea from Bill Strand, and I then linked you the podcast where I had heard it. As a matter of fact, that humidity at night idea was in my OP, that you replied too, and made observation about that very factor, and said don't run the fogger during the day(which the fogger during the day isn't an issue, the fogger + the basking light is, which has been resolved by a switch in Thermostats)

You did, tell me that the Heat+humidity was bad, and that I was wrong about, and did learn from you. And the only time you mentioned Petr was about the where Panthers are found.

I'm not throwing you under the bus, either I am differing from your idea that you gave to him.

That all aside, you told him to turn the misters on 1 hour after lights go on, and 1 hour before they go off.

That is NOT, what Petr and Bill say to do, like I said, you turn them on Before lights on, this creates the morning dew they would find in the wild. And they are not disturbed by the mist, as they are sleeping, which usually is lower.

The same also applies to the nighttime spraying Bill just says after lights out, Petr actually states after they are fully asleep, as so they are not bothered and it gets a jump start into nighttime humidity. Your suggestion to him, is your own, no one else is stating to do that, not Bill not Petr.

Which is what I was saying, for both him and you, because if you are trying to recreate what they are doing, that isn't it.

 

[Tucklander]

You’ve had your questions answered, I have one for you ...your enclosure is very cool. Is that the “good stuff” from Lowe’s/HomeDepot with coconut shell substrate glued on? That is very nice looking, when I complete my adult cage I’m definitely going to plead for help creating those formations, it looks really great!

 

[cyberlocc]

You’ve had your questions answered, I have one for you ...your enclosure is very cool. Is that the “good stuff” from Lowe’s/HomeDepot with coconut shell substrate glued on? That is very nice looking, when I complete my adult cage I’m definitely going to plead for help creating those formations, it looks really great!

Great stuff, Eco earth (or Cocofiber), and silicon not glue, GE Silicon 1, not glue, not silicon 2, that is very imporant.

And yes that is very likely what it is.

 

[Tucklander]

Thanks much, I saved it to my phone it reaylooks awesome

 

[andrearamirezo91]

Thanks much, I saved it to my phone it reaylooks awesome

Thank you so much for the compliment! Yes, it’s great stuff, coco fiber and GE silicone! It was a very fun project and not hard, just a little time consuming. Here’s the link to when I was working on it. I hope you find it helpful

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/first-little-project-starting-to-come-together.164516/

The plants have grown quite a bit and are starting to look really nice, so it’s looking even better. Since I did this I haven’t been having issues with humidity and cage maintenance became much easier since I have nothing being supported by the bottom tray. Worth it! Feel free to message me with any questions.

 

[Tucklander]

I’m looking into several permanent cage options, I want a wood cage for the look of it ...wood and screen...but yes (sorry for my finger flub before) I am definitely adding that. And it looks amazing, thanks for the advice and links