Gout?
- Thread starter Sky11
- Start date
They are incorrect Arcadia bulbs last a good 12-15 months. Change out on them is every 12 months. Zoomed bulbs should be changed out every 9 months. You would not feed an adult panther every day. This is how they become very obese. Every other day only of roughly 5 insects. plain calcium without D3 every feeding. and then multivitamin with D3 and A 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.
Sky11
Member
That was my exact thought. And they are saying my bill with all the tests is going to be over $1400 and I feel uncomfortable paying that much if they don’t know what they’re doing. They have an exotic vet looking at him but I can only talk to the emergency vet who doesn’t know anything about exotics?
I think that is freaking nuts for what they are saying it will cost.
I would want to talk to the exotic treating him... But regardless if that is the one saying female then maybe not... I have no idea why they are saying MBD unless they just want to charge for an xray. I see no visable signs of MBD. Gout would be determined by the uric acid levels of the blood work.
I do not think I would allow the xray but that is me personally.
So blood work yes.... Do not let them give him any vitamin shots or dewormer.
Sky11
Member
Ok I will just do the blood work and be done here. I will post what they say when it’s done but am leaving after this and maybe get a second opinion somewhere else that I can trust deals with exotics. I just felt like this was an emergency situation and felt comfortable going to this emergency vet because the exotic vet I was going to go to recommended I go here because they couldn’t get me in today. Thank u for your help
It normally takes a few days to a week depending on labs run to get results back.
I’m not a vet …I can only give my best opinion.
I see the lumps and it’s not normal IMHO. ..but I don’t know what it is that’s causing this.
The fact that this emergency vet doesn’t know that you definitely have a male, didn’t know about the replacement timing for that brand of light, etc. makes me cringe and say get another vet asap.
You said…”So jasper has gotten a lot worse. He was acting pretty normal up until Friday night. He was hanging out at the bottom of a ladder towards the bottom of his enclosure for a few days until Friday night he fell and stayed on the floor the entire night”…How far did he fall?
You said,..”He also started shutting his eyes or sometimes just one eye during the day”…what form of vitamin A is in the vitamins you use?
You said…“Saturday and today Sunday he’s been trying to climb but keeps falling” …it’s not good that he keeps falling.
You said…”He’s been eating normally but one of my concerns is how is he getting water? I have a mist king but there are no leaves for him to drink off of at night when it goes off because he stays on the floor. I tried to just spray him so some would get in his mouth but he tried to move away from the water and fell so I stopped spraying and never tried that again”…don’t spray him directly…you might get water in his lungs. You could drip water on the very end of his nose though slowly…one or two drips per second. What colour are his urates? If they are white or pale orange then he’s hydrated. If the urates are dark orange then he needs more water.
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Sky11
Member
Ya I’m never going back. It was an emergency vet hospital so they’re not my normal vet. They claimed to be an exotic vet but clearly know nothing about chameleon's
Sky11
Member
I have done one years ago but I would like to do one again because the vet told me I need to just tweak a few things but I don’t trust them and what they suggested I do seemed outdated. So I think it would be smart to just double check here. I just did the bloodwork like you said and the bill was cut in half thankfully. His uric acid came back high and they confirmed he does have gout. I had to get the allopurinol shipped because I was at the vet for 7 hours and the pharmacy couldn’t get my prescription ready for 2 hours and they closed in an hour. I also live over an hour from this compound pharmacy which the emergency vet said is the only place I could get it from? I think there are other ones closer to me that I will get it from in the future if that’s true. They gave me a tramadol pain killer about 10 liquid doses at the vet as well. He is climbing again after I brought him home but he is still slipping and falling. He made it up halfway to his dripper. My concern is if he’s spending most of his time at the bottom would a 4x2x2 be a bad idea for a Cham with gout? Should I give him the option of a vertical enclosure if the medicine starts to make him feel a lot better or would a horizontal one be good?
So I would do one of two things if he is falling. Either lay the cage on the side if it is screen. This way it only makes it a roughly 15 inches from the branch to the bottom screen. You would have to rework the entire set up though. Or you could do a hospital bin... This is a large tote that you can put in potted plants and very low branches then lay the UVB across the top. You just have to make sure he can not get out of it if he is still actively trying to climb. I can go over specifics for UVB based on what you choose.
I would still have the blood reviewed by another vet that works with reptiles and chameleons. Personally I would be cautious with the tramadol... Meds can be hard on renal function.
Here is the help form. Copy and paste it into your reply and I will go through every detail. Be as specific as possible.
Chameleon Info:
- Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
- Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
- Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
- Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
- Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
- Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
- History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Cage Info:
- Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
- Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
- Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
- Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
- Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
- Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
- Location - Where are you geographically located?
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Sky11
Member
Sorry I haven’t filled out the help form yet. I’ve been so busy trying to get his medicine and taking caring of him all while working full time and honestly everything has just been getting thrown at me all at once in life right now. I do intend to fill it out but honestly at this point I don’t even know how much time he has left. I wanted to ask when is it a good idea for euthanasia? I gave him his first does of allopurinol tonight because I finally just got it in the mail and I tried to feed him a horn worm with it. He shot his tongue at it 3 times or tried to but it came out like one inch and he missed it everytime. It seems like he is having trouble shooting his tongue. I don’t want him to suffer and if he is just going to keep getting worse it doesn’t feel right. I don’t know if I should just keep trying to help him feel a little better or if it should be his time to go. If you have any advice on when is the right time it would be appreciated
Sky11
Member
He is a male Nosy Faly Panther chameleon. He is about 3 1/2 years old and I’ve had him since he was about 6months old
I do not handle him often because he doesn’t like to be handled. Very rarely has he wanted to come out. I have handled him a hand full of times when he has let me but I try to respect that he does not like to be handled.
I did feed him dubias as a staple but now that he has gout I’m switching to silk worms. An order of them just came in the mail today. Otherwise I mix in super worms, meal worms, bsfl and I used to feed crickets when he was a lot younger. I feed wax worms and horn worms as treats. I feed him a couple times a week about 4 bugs. I gutload carrots, parsnips, sweet potatoes and kale.
I use Repashy calcium plus lod 2 times a month. All the other feedings I use earth pro calcium. Once in awhile I’ll put in some of the bio dude pollen power with the regular calcium.
I have a mist king that goes off about 15 min after lights out for 4 min then every 2 hours for 1-2 min until 15 min before lights on for another 4 min. I also use a humidifier most nights when lights are off that has a tube running into his enclosure. I have a dripper that I have going most of the day when lights are on so he has an option to drink during the day. I do see him drink. There are some holes sort of like a drain that I’ve drilled into the bottom and siliconed a pvc pipe to the bottom and a hole cut into the stand his enclosure is set on, that funnels into a bucket so the excess water can drain out and then I just dump the bucket when it starts to get full.
His poops are normal. Has a solid form sometimes a little watery depending on if he eats a horn worm or silk worm otherwise solid. His urates are white sometimes have a hint of orange but nothing alarming. He was tested for parasites when I first got him and came back negative. Hasn’t shown any signs of parasites.
Besides the most resent history of him being diagnosed with gout previously he has always acted normal and should no signs of anything worrisome.
His enclosure is a hybrid pvc zen habitat 2x2x4 set in a stand about 3 feet off the ground I think? The top of the stand comes up about hip length to me.
UVB is an Arcadia 6% T5 HO positioned diagonal across the top screen on about 1 inch small blocks on each side to lift it off the screen. Same with the Arcadia deep heat projector that is hooked up to a thermostat. And there is also a the bio dude plant light on top of the screen for his live plants in his enclosure. His lights come on at 8:30am and turn off at 8:30pm.
His hot spot is at 85 degrees and bottom of the cage is about 75 degrees. Measured by a temperature and hygrometer at the top and close to the bottom of the cage. I also have an infrared thermometer gun. At night his deep heat projector turns off with the lights so the temperatures drop to what our house thermostat is set to at about 70-72 degrees.
Humidity levels during the day are about 50% due to his dripper, live plants and hybrid enclosure set up. At night they are between 90-100% due to the mist king misting schedule and humidifier. Is use the thermostat/hygrometer the is placed at the top and near the bottom to read the humidity levels.
I have 2 very large live plants in his enclosure. One is an umbrella tree that I trim when it’s covering too much of his uvb that has been in his enclosure since I got him. The other is a parlor palm I believe it’s called? That is also very large. Both are in large pots on 2 plant stands slightly lifted about an inch or 2 off the ground of his enclosure. I repot them every summer about. I keep play sand and rocks covering the top to keep him from eating any dirt or sand. Thought he has never tried to.
His enclosure is right next to my closet just a few feet from my door in my room. Across the room is the window that I leave the blinds open so he can look out and see if it’s night or day. Not much traffic besides me when I’m home. I do have a ceiling fan that I leave on for ventilation. I also have an air purifier that is by the window across the room that also has a fan. It’s a small room though so it purifies the entire room. The top of the cage is about a foot from the ceiling so the cage itself is pretty high up.
I live in Minnesota so it’s pretty dry in the winter and humid in the summer.
The current problem is his gout and if there is anything I need to change to make him feel better
Sky11
Member
So husbandry is pretty much on point...
Your night time temps need to be colder to be fogging at night. Really want those to drop down below 67. Heat and fog can create RI risk. Plus the cooler temps at night is beneficial for them.
Per the misting schedule. With you not having any misting sessions in the daytime I would have a dripper running for him. With gout it is almost always linked to dehydration. There are other causes but this is the one we see most. It can be linked to insects that store higher uric acid levels. But with this it is normally due to the gutload being a higher protein level then recommended. Your doing all fresh veg so this would not apply to your situation. It can be linked to incorrect supplementation which then compromises the renal function but again your supplementation is on point.
With the UVB your running. What is the exact distance from the screen to the branch below it? Its this light path blocked by plants growing higher? Your running the arcadia T5HO with a 6% bulb so the distance that you should have to a branch directly below this fixture would be 8-9 inches. This puts them in a 3 UVI. Arcadia bulbs need to be replaced every year.
Sky11
Member
I will try to get his night time temps down to 67. I ah e a dripper running for him everyday while lights are on. I see him drink from it. His UVB I will have to measure the distance when I get home I’m at work right now but there is a small section of the uvb that has some leaves in front of it right now. I could trim them down. I replace them every year last year was in may so I will be replacing his bulb soon
Sky11
Member
Hi again! so I’ve got a hospital enclosure in the works right now because I think it would be a good idea for Jasper. He still climbs across the top but he can’t move up much without falling and he tries to often so it seems like he still wants to climb but maybe something more accessible for him would be better. He doesn’t fall very far so he hasn’t gotten hurt yet but I’m nervous for the day that he falls all the way to the bottom. It seems like the gout is worse in his front legs than his back ones. He doesn’t use the front ones as much as the back and hangs a front leg or 2 occasionally. He tries to climb up and it looks like his front legs can’t grasp very well so he catches himself with the back ones and his tail. Climbing across doesn’t seem to be as much of a problem for him. I have a 2x2x4 zen habitat so I can’t really put it on its side. I’m buying a 4x2x2 because I was going to upgrade my leopard gecko to it eventually anyways so I thought I might as well just get it now for Jasper and give it to my Leo once Jasper is no longer with us. My question is should I get a longer uvb light so it can reach across the entire top of the longer enclosure? And my second question is, is one heat lamp ok so he can still have the heat gradient or do I need to get a second one? And my third question, can I still have some sticks at different heights for him to climb around on? Most of the hospital set ups I’ve seen have like one big stick on the very bottom of the bin and I don’t know how I feel about that since he can still climb for the most part as long as it’s not too far up or down for him and then if he did fall it wouldn’t be 4 feet down to the ground it would be 2? I was also thinking about putting some plants at the bottom maybe like pothos so he could land on those and it would be a softer landing and also still help with humidity. I’m going to get a shelf so he can still feel higher up because the stand I have now is only about 3 feet high.
So yes, you want a UVB fixture that runs the entire width of the enclosure. one heat dome is fine. I would get one that has a larger like an 8 inch rather than the 5 inch ones. The larger ones produce a bigger heat foot print below them.
Per the set up. I find that adding in branches closer to one another and really filling it out with plants helps a cham that is struggling with grip. So you may feel like you have a crazy amount of branches but ensuring that he can grap on between to plants or branches will help him stay more stable then trying to reach really far for one when he is having grip or balance issues.
Sky11
Member
Ok perfect thank you so much for the help!
Hey hun can you show me a few new pics of him?
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