Gravid Gracilis And Tavetana!!

[Cainschams]

Well I got my pairs of gracilis and tavetana today in the mail. Ive been wanting to work with these two for a while now and found only 2 places selling them. The first place didnt want to call me or email me back so I went to the second knowing what could be in store for me. I have been keeping chameleons for 4 years now and I want to go to another level. Basicly acclimating WC specimen, dealing with parasites, and other problems that occur when dealing with WC. I also want to branch out from the NORM and build more experience. Again I know what can be in store for me but I am always up for a challenge so DONT BUST ON ME TO HARD. That being said. My guys came in the mail today. Both the males LOOK pretty good and they all drank for me every spraying. The females on the other hand are gravid I am sure off because they are fat as pigs and you can see the lumps. They also have a slight sign of MBD in the tails. It doesnt look bad but I can tell. I would assume this is from being gravid and not getting the proper care they need before and when they are gravid. I already had proper laying bins in the cages before they arrived to be prepared. All of them are drinking and running around there cages and really started to brighten up by the end of the day so I see this as an alright start.

Ok here are the questions. I want to get fecals done on them soon. Should I get any other tests on them like calcium levels for the females? I think Ive read that it isnt good to use meds for parasites on gravid chams? What other steps should I take to get these guys up to optimum health?

My gracilis are in 2x3x4 screened cages with live plants plenty of stuff to climb on. The basking site is around 85 or so, cool spot around 72 that is what I keep my house at. Humidity is around 50 percent. I read they can range between dry and wet habbitats. I am misting and dripping of course and once they get used to home I will be taking them out for sunlight. I dont want to be moving them around at the moment. There personality is very cool. They are really curious and active but the fem is a little pissy.

The tavetana are in 2x2x3 screened cages with live plants and plenty of things to climb on. Both have schefflera for dense hiding places. The basking site is around 80 or so and the cool spot is 72 again. In this room I have been keeping the humidity up to around 70 and it will def be more as summer starts to come in. I am using a cool mist humidifier, dripper and misting. Reptisun 5.0 for both and I will also be taking these guys out for sun as long as weather permits. These guys personalities are pretty shy so far which is to be expected from what I have read. The male is a little less leary to me. Both are really active. These guys have some really nice turqoise and neon green speckles on them. The female especially. I am really glad I got these guys and hope my experience with them is a good one.

Ok after all my blabbing I would appreciate any comments, opinions, and please anyone(CHRIS A.) who has experience with these two chime in and let me know how you cared for them and any other special things you may have found out to better this experience for me. Thanks for your time and pics will be here as soon as everyone is feeling at home.

 

[Kent67]

I have been keeping chameleons for 4 years now and I want to go to another level. Basicly acclimating WC specimen, dealing with parasites, and other problems that occur when dealing with WC. I also want to branch out from the NORM and build more experience. Again I know what can be in store for me but I am always up for a challenge so DONT BUST ON ME TO HARD.

I say good for you for wanting to expand your experience. I think it can only help your over-all level of care for and understanding of all your animals. If any of them had MBD, it would be the first I've heard of it in a recent import, which I'd have to assume these are? Also, curious as to your choice of these two very uncommon species on the forums. Any particular reason? Of all the members of that complex, Kinyongia tavetana has always been my favorite.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Congratulations and I wish you the best. How exciting!

From what I've read, and from what our vet has told us, treating a gravid cham for parasites (at least using the traditional medications) will result in nonviable eggs. We have also been told that parasites do not transfer to the eggs, and that it is best to just be sure the female is well hydrated, well fed, and well supplemented while carrying the eggs, and then carefully treat her, if necessary, after she has laid her clutch. If, however, a female is showing signs of illness due to parasite load, then a decision must be made to either treat the female, to save her life, or hope she hangs on til the clutch is laid.

I would also add that if a female cham has a microorganism that is causing chronic diarrhea, then you probably need to treat that or you may lose her.

 

[Cainschams]

Thanks for the kind words Kent. I thought the same thing and have been wanting to do this for sometime. Well I got them from lll reptile I know they dont keep there chams the best way possible but like I said I am ready to deal with it. Would this be a recent import comming from them? The females both have slight kinks in the tails. I chose the gracilis because I saw a pair at the local pet store. At that time I didnt have space, money, etc. that I do now. I was really facinated in them. They seem to have a great personality and I really liked the looks and colors of them. The tavetana I have always thought to be interesting myself. I wanted some sort of fischers or fischers looking species and decided on them. They look really cool and they are small so they save some more space for future projects and hopefully BABIES. Another reason is I have yet to see any CB specimen from either species and want to try my hand on maybe providing some one of these days. With all the parasites and other things i have read about these two species harboring it would be nice not to have to deal with that. Also I have read breeding potential for both is good. Have you kept any of these?

Thanks for the info gesang.

 

[mczoo]

how bout some pics....ya know for us newbies to fall in love with

good luck

sean

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Well I have worked with my fair share of wc and I have never heard of any with MBD, I agree with Kent, I don't think it is possible for them to get it in the wild. Also, I have noticed that I have had a lot of bad first clutches from the wc but great second clutches (that come in gravid). I don't give them any meds until after their second or sometimes third clutch.

-chris

 

[Kent67]

If they are from LLL then yes, they are definitely recent imports and the tails most likely were injured during capture or the import process. Living close to LLL, I've done a lot of business with them for chams over the years. Although how they care for them seems to change over time, I still try to buy animals that haven't been there too long. And nope, haven't tried either of these species yet. Closest I've had are the dilepis I've had for about a month and nothing from the Fischer's complex yet.

 

[Cainschams]

Mc I will have some soon. I dont have a camera but my friend does and Ill have him bring it over. I want them to settle in first though.

Kent and Chris I am glad to know that it isnt MBD. I dont know how long the really keep there animals for and at the show I went to they were all bunched up in small cages. Im sure you need to compact all of your stuff though. So more then likely injuries. I did notice the female tavetanas tail looks a lot better since she is sleeping. It is curled up nice.

Chris thanks for the info. What do you think about the males. Should I wait to get them all done at once or go ahead and get the males checked?

Thanks guys I really appreciate the input.

 

[nightcrawler]

as i mentioned to you before that there is a reptile store near me that
has their stuff from LLL, what i seen of them they came in nice to that store.
the guy was talking to another customer and said that when his friend from San D gets
them from his guy he sends them right to him. so they are in transit two days. so that might be why his look good.
i figure if you can get them faster from the wild, then you have a less
chance of the pet stores messing things up.

im glad to hear you are expanding your trade.
i cant wait to see your pics.

 

[Cainschams]

Wooooo Hoooo. Well mrs tavetana just plopped out 11 what seems to be fertile eggs. They are pretty dirty but they look good and white behind the dirt. At least not yellow. We will see what is to come with these later on. I am just glad she laid and looks to be doing good. The male has already eaten 2 times for me since I got them. No one else has eaten yet but are still drinking like madmen. I will keep updating this thread with any new developments. Oh and does anyone have any incubation techniques for these guys. CHRIS A WHERE ARE YOU hahaha.

 

[Kent67]

Abate and Kalisch wrote an article for the CiN in 1995 in which they state the proper incubation temps are daytime highs of 76F with a night drop of 5-8F degrees. Standard vermiculite to water ratio and typical sweat, slit, hatch pattern after 7-9 months of waiting. But, Le Berre says a constant 71F produces hatchlings in 4-5 months also. I say don't cook them, don't let them get too cool and be patient. If they're good, they're good and you'll find out soon enough.

 

[Kent67]

Oh, and congratulations! I'd really like to see you hatch some of these!!

 

[Cainschams]

Hey thanks Kent. Is there a link to that site. I think I will go with the constant 71. Adcham also said around 76 with a drop and they would hatch between 7 and 9 months. Patience hahaha that is a thing that I dont have but this whole breeding thing is definatly teaching me. My panthers should be hatching anytime now ahhhh. Man so much going on I love this hobby. My old gf who I am still friends with said my house is going to be a jungle after she leaves. Well its turning into one

 

[Kent67]

No links, it's old-school print. Journals and books

I imagine the Adcham info was probably taken from the article I was referring to also. The info from Francois le Berre is in his Chameleon Handbook.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Chameleon-Handbook-Everything-Reproduction/dp/0812018052/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210375616&sr=8-5

 

[Cainschams]

Thanks Kent I dont have the chameleon handbook but I am certainly going to add it to my small collection. I really appreciate the effort to help. Thanks again.