Gravid Oustaleti or confused Oustaleti?

[FFSTRescue]

Ok, so I have had my male and female WC Ousties for about 7-9 months, and my female was just a juvenile, borderline sub-adult when I got her, only about 3 inches STV, rough estimate. She was pretty small, still is, I'd say 6 inches STV length, again, rough estimate. She and my male have an odd relationship. She has to be at a location in her cage where she can see him, and he her, so they have their cages right next to each other and perch as close to each other as possible (it has been noted that males and females possibly form "relationships" in the wild and stay close-by each other), but if I put her in with him (he's bigger than her by about 4 inches STV), she gapes, hisses, darkens, and he, being the big baby that he is, turns and runs away and hides from her. Pretty sad, but funny. So I KNOW for a fact that they have not mated, as I have always monitored their interactions, however, if I completely separate them so they can't see each other, no matter what mood, her being gravid or not, they both stop eating. So lately she has begun to show classic Oustie gravid coloration. Now she is digging in her egg-laying bin (I always provide one to females no matter what), and she is not noticeably gravid, as in I cannot palpate eggs in her abdomen once she deflates. She always puffs her abdomen up, even when she thinks no one is watching her.
I have tried several times introducing them, and she doesn't hiss anymore, she just flashes gravid coloration and the male, being the gentleman he is, walks away. I have tried introducing them at different times of the day, waited a couple weeks, introduced them in their outside cages, doesn't matter, she thinks she is gravid whether she is or isn't. She has been doing this for about a month and a half, and has shown NO eggs upon gentle abdominal palpation, is still eating like normal, etc.
So my questions are, is it possible that she had a male mate with her as a juvenile (poor thing) and retained the sperm for 9 months, or is it possible that she is undergoing follicular development and her subconscious is confusing that with fertile eggs?

 

[draetish]

How big are their individual cages and then the outdoor cage. Maybe if they had a large enough space to be together but able to not be together and had lots of foilage and maybe a visiual barrier, they would get along. How long do you leave them together?

 

[FFSTRescue]

His indoor cage is 6ft x 5 ft x 2 ft, and you'd think that would be fine for the two of them, but she seems stressed when in there (or she did last time they were inside, maybe different now), so I have her in a 2ft x 2ft x 4ft right next to it and they are content. Outside, I have a 6ft x 6ft x 6ft as well as two 2ft x 2ft x 6ft tall, one for both of them right next to each other with all the cages being heavily planted. They seem fine when in the outdoor large one, she just shows gravid coloration and he leaves her alone, but I haven't left them in there for more than an hour because I got sick of spying on them and I want to know for sure if/when they mate so I can figure out what is going on with her. When she was obviously unreceptive, she would gape, hiss, turn black, and run away and he would take off in the opposite direction as well, and I would continue to watch for like another 20 minutes and they just left each other alone, then I lost patience and separated them. So recently, I put them in there together, she gaped at him once, and he turned around and ran away, but she turned gravid coloration (this was about a week ago and has stayed gravid colored since), and this is where I spied on them for about an hour, he was intrigued and followed her around, she wanted to be left alone, didn't look stressed, just was brightly gravid colored, and if he did get too close, she would charge and hiss. It was nothing too aggressive, but because she has yet to show receptive behavior or receptive coloration, I have not wanted to leave them un-supervised. I just have a hard time believing that she is actually gravid unless she retained sperm for that long, have you heard of that before? Also, do you think it is ok to leave them alone given she is not showing stress coloration when she tells him to go away and he listens every time? She just goes about her business looking for different nesting boxes and pots to dig in. I will post a picture of her tomorrow when the sun is out. He has never advanced upon her, if anything, I would be worried about her biting him, and if you remember the post of my bleeding hand, they bite hard!
So, any suggestions based off that?

 

[draetish]

Hmmmm that is strange. What if you separated them for 2-3 weeks and even though they won't eat, they won't starve either and then re-introduce them. Don't let them see each other "at all". Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Hmmmm that is strange. What if you separated them for 2-3 weeks and even though they won't eat, they won't starve either and then re-introduce them. Don't let them see each other "at all". Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Lol, okay, I'll try it and see

 

[draetish]

Lol, okay, I'll try it and see

Tough love Mom, sometimes you just gotta do it!

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."if I put her in with him (he's bigger than her by about 4 inches STV), she gapes, hisses, darkens, and he, being the big baby that he is, turns and runs away and hides from her"...IMHO when she is behaving like this she is being stressed by the male and if she is digging to lay eggs, this is not likely a good thing. Just my opiniion.

 

[FFSTRescue]

You said..."if I put her in with him (he's bigger than her by about 4 inches STV), she gapes, hisses, darkens, and he, being the big baby that he is, turns and runs away and hides from her"...IMHO when she is behaving like this she is being stressed by the male and if she is digging to lay eggs, this is not likely a good thing. Just my opiniion.

That's why I don't keep them together, I don't want him experiencing stress either. When you say its not likely a good thing, do you mean with her health, or do you mean housing them together? If you mean housing them together, I agree, which is why I don't. But she is digging to lay eggs whether he is with her or not. I am just concerned about folliculitis.

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

Keeping her in vision of the male could have caused her to produce eggs and you may have missed the rather short receptive period before she technically became gravid with infertile eggs. I have heard that seeing a male repeatedly can trigger a female to make eggs, fertile or not depending on if they are bred at the right time.


-justin

 

[FFSTRescue]

Keeping her in vision of the male could have caused her to produce eggs and you may have missed the rather short receptive period before she technically became gravid with infertile eggs. I have heard that seeing a male repeatedly can trigger a female to make eggs, fertile or not depending on if they are bred at the right time.


-justin

That sucks, because I think you are right, I did miss the short window where she was probably receptive now that I think back Of course it was when I was moving and had no time to deal with breeding chameleons. Doesn't it seem like things always work that way??? Thanks Justin, I appreciate your unfortunately correct advice

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

Don' worry. I missed it with a female I recently moved outdoors. She just turned 14 months and has never been bred/laid infertiles and now is showing gravid coloration literally a week after I put her outside during this warm and rainy week. I was really excited to breed her as I have been waiting soooo long for her to let me and I missed it. She comes from a local friend of mine up here who has a just unreal WC ambilobe male. He looks similar to Rekka from Pas chams but with a little bit orangier red and deeper navy bars. He literally shows no green except for the one time he was sick. It's my prize female and I am super pissed at myself, and my 60hr a week work schedule for making me miss my change. Atleast I know she's healthy and will be around for a fertile clutch in the future though. That always makes me feel better. I guess. Lol. Good luck with her in the future. I wouldn't mind seeing some F1 ousties in the future.


Justin

 

[FFSTRescue]

Don' worry. I missed it with a female I recently moved outdoors. She just turned 14 months and has never been bred/laid infertiles and now is showing gravid coloration literally a week after I put her outside during this warm and rainy week. I was really excited to breed her as I have been waiting soooo long for her to let me and I missed it. She comes from a local friend of mine up here who has a just unreal WC ambilobe male. He looks similar to Rekka from Pas chams but with a little bit orangier red and deeper navy bars. He literally shows no green except for the one time he was sick. It's my prize female and I am super pissed at myself, and my 60hr a week work schedule for making me miss my change. Atleast I know she's healthy and will be around for a fertile clutch in the future though. That always makes me feel better. I guess. Lol. Good luck with her in the future. I wouldn't mind seeing some F1 ousties in the future.


Justin

Oh bummer!!! Just keep telling yourself that the opportunity will arise again and cut back on that 60 hour a week work schedule! Geez! I thought 40 was bad!
I really wanted to breed my ousties, but like yours, there will be another time
I would love to acquire some F1, I want to acquire a large breeding colony to start promoting captive breeding to help save Madagascar's wildlife, but these guys are such a pain in the a** to breed, but they are such a great chameleon.
Your chams and bloodlines sound BEAUTIFUL! Any pictures?

 

[kinyonga]

Leaving the male in with her during the digging/laying IMHO can stress the female out even if she doesn't appear to be.

I have housed a pair of oustalet's together for part of the year but not when the female was gravid.

Hopefully your female will dig and lay the eggs without any trouble. Don't let her see you watching her when she's digging (likely not a good idea even when she's looking for a place to dig). If she were in follicular stasis I don't think she would be digging but I'm not a vet so I can't say for sure. I've seen/heard of ones that are eggbound digging and not being able to lay the eggs and filling in the hole....but I don't recall any digging when the eggs were not formed.

I sincerely hope that someone continues on the study that finished in 2009 concerning reproduction in chameleons that was started due to the problems with dystocia and follicular stasis.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Leaving the male in with her during the digging/laying IMHO can stress the female out even if she doesn't appear to be.

I have housed a pair of oustalet's together for part of the year but not when the female was gravid.

Hopefully your female will dig and lay the eggs without any trouble. Don't let her see you watching her when she's digging (likely not a good idea even when she's looking for a place to dig). If she were in follicular stasis I don't think she would be digging but I'm not a vet so I can't say for sure. I've seen/heard of ones that are eggbound digging and not being able to lay the eggs and filling in the hole....but I don't recall any digging when the eggs were not formed.

I sincerely hope that someone continues on the study that finished in 2009 concerning reproduction in chameleons that was started due to the problems with dystocia and follicular stasis.

Thanks for your info, much appreciated. Yes, it would be nice for someone to further that reproductive study.
You are the master of posting articles so do you happen to have any scientific articles on reproduction that you could start a new thread about if you have time? I figure if anyone had them, you would.

 

[kinyonga]

I'll have to look and see what I can find about reproduction....but it might be hard to do this because there are so many species and differences in many of the species....and the articles would have to be on line or available to the public because reproducing would have to be done with permission.

I do have a copy of the one that was done with the veileds, but I can't release it yet...and if I could I would need permission for it too....sorry.

Here's an interesting site to keep you busy...
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/38/2/395.pdf

 

[FFSTRescue]

I'll have to look and see what I can find about reproduction....but it might be hard to do this because there are so many species and differences in many of the species....and the articles would have to be on line or available to the public because reproducing would have to be done with permission.

I do have a copy of the one that was done with the veileds, but I can't release it yet...and if I could I would need permission for it too....sorry.

Here's an interesting site to keep you busy...
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/38/2/395.pdf

Now my ears are burning
Thanks for the link

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

I'm gunna be working on updating my gallery this weekend with all new pics. I'll let you know when I get them up. I have been very selective about the males and females I have purchased. I'll let you know when the new pics are up.