Green Kale Worms?

[KrinsCham]

I grow kale, I live in SoCal what do you expect. This year I have had a well timed infestation of soft green worms. Since they eat kale which is high in calcium I thought they would be good for my Panther. Well he loves them more than anything else. I fed him a few at first without any ill signs, since then he has eaten almost every worm I could find in the garden. In fact he is now picky and only wants green kale worms or super worms.
Has anyone else seen or fed these worms? I will take a picture of the next one I find. They are soft green about an inch long (largest) maybe an 1/8 around. They do produce what is a silk like material that they seem to use as a escape mechanism.
I was thinking of trying to raise these guys as another source of food, has anyone tried that? Once again kale is apparently high in calcium, which should in theory be a more natural bioavailable source of calcium for Chameleons. This makes me think it would be a really healthy variety of food.
Any opinions or advice is welcomed.
Cheers

 

[KrinsCham]

Anyone know exactly what these worms are?

 

[Kingkush]

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/pdf/2201.pdf its called an imported cabbage worm..lots of catapillars are toxic so feeding it whithout knowing the composition is prob not logical and risky to the animal.I feed kale to my crickets so you can still get it in them if your dedicated to kale

 

[brownie64]

I'm not familiar with these, but I know that horn worms can be toxic to your cham if they eat tomato plants. Are you sure that Kale is all they are eating?

 

[WilcoxAE]

They are harmless. They are also full of vitamins. Not to mention, they indicate that your kale doesn't have any pesticides.

I'd say watch your cham closely to make sure as always to make sure they are only dining on kale and not a toxic plant. They are probably high in protein and maybe fats. I wouldn't feed them every day, like any feeder insect.

And always check before feeding something new. A lot of people had to die to learn about toxic fruits and veges, don't let your chameleon be a guinea pig for new endeavors into the culinary arts for the chameleon community.

 

[KrinsCham]

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/pdf/2201.pdf its called an imported cabbage worm..lots of catapillars are toxic so feeding it whithout knowing the composition is prob not logical and risky to the animal.I feed kale to my crickets so you can still get it in them if your dedicated to kale

Thanks @Kingkusk, for the identification of the worms. I have read many different recommendations to collect wild caught food to diversify as long as no pesticides are being used. When doing this are you saying that the only "logical" way to collect properly is to identify and understand the "composition" of all bugs prior to feeding, this seems impractical if not impossible for non-entomologists. I figured to start with some and see how he responded, also thought they looked similar to hornworms and I knew what they were eating was not toxic, so they were offered with logic, care and caution. Also most caterpillars that are toxic look toxic, I.E. in there coloring/patterning. If it is only logical to feed insects that one has identified and understood the composition of, prior to feeding then collecting insects should be a NOT be recommended and we should only be feeding farm raised. This is opposite of what I have read, do you know of any experts that recommend not collecting local insects?

 

[KrinsCham]

They are harmless. They are also full of vitamins. Not to mention, they indicate that your kale doesn't have any pesticides.

I'd say watch your cham closely to make sure as always to make sure they are only dining on kale and not a toxic plant. They are probably high in protein and maybe fats. I wouldn't feed them every day, like any feeder insect.

And always check before feeding something new. A lot of people had to die to learn about toxic fruits and veges, don't let your chameleon be a guinea pig for new endeavors into the culinary arts for the chameleon community.

Thanks WilcoxAE

 

[KrinsCham]

I'm not familiar with these, but I know that horn worms can be toxic to your cham if they eat tomato plants. Are you sure that Kale is all they are eating?

Yes they are in a green house with only kale. No nightshades or other plants available.

 

[Kingkush]

I dont know what you define as expert i only know from my own experience..that i in general try not to feed them wild insects as there are too many variables like as you said pestisides.parasites.etc..its fine if your monitoring for them i guess..my methods and opinions shouldnt affect you if your confident in your methods..so no need to get all bent..to me its not smart..to you its ok we agree to disagree.

 

[WilcoxAE]

Yes they are in a green house with only kale. No nightshades or other plants available.

Sounds good to me. Id' say raise those little bad boys. They pupate into a lovely little white butterfly that most gardeners detest but I am sure your cham would enjoy those as well. How fun to eat!

Critters like hornworms are MADE toxic by WHAT they eat and we all know that you can buy hornworms for chammy food.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Sounds good to me. Id' say raise those little bad boys. They pupate into a lovely little white butterfly that most gardeners detest but I am sure your cham would enjoy those as well. How fun to eat!

Critters like hornworms are MADE toxic by WHAT they eat and we all know that you can buy hornworms for chammy food.

That's true, but I think the ones with spines (the fuzzy ones) contain a toxin that can be a problem. I expect a chameleon would immediately release a stinging caterpillar.

 

[Lathis]

If nothing else, let them hatch into moths. Cabbage moths make a great enrichment feeder. My jax went nuts for cabbage moths. Not much in the way of nutrition, but they really trigger the feeding instinct.

 

[gotwqqd]

I'd try to get them to pupate and breed.
1. Maybe you can identify them
2. You can control food eaten in a bin
3. Don't have to search for them in the garden/field

 

[Dro B]

I grow kale, I live in SoCal what do you expect. This year I have had a well timed infestation of soft green worms. Since they eat kale which is high in calcium I thought they would be good for my Panther. Well he loves them more than anything else. I fed him a few at first without any ill signs, since then he has eaten almost every worm I could find in the garden. In fact he is now picky and only wants green kale worms or super worms.
Has anyone else seen or fed these worms? I will take a picture of the next one I find. They are soft green about an inch long (largest) maybe an 1/8 around. They do produce what is a silk like material that they seem to use as a escape mechanism.
I was thinking of trying to raise these guys as another source of food, has anyone tried that? Once again kale is apparently high in calcium, which should in theory be a more natural bioavailable source of calcium for Chameleons. This makes me think it would be a really healthy variety of food.
Any opinions or advice is welcomed.
Cheers

Any chance you could let a few of these pupate and sell them to me to give them a go at breeding? I I usually breed sphinx moth species but I'm pretty confident I can breed these they look very similar to some of the white butterflies I bred years ago that were on cabbage, I have a hydroponic garden for the caterpillars I breed in winter and the pairing cages I have would be huge for this species and have the space that butterflies require for successful pairings. If I'm sucessfull I'd send you back some for yourself and share any important info with you. I also have other feeders I could trade in a week or so when my food shipment gets here.

 

[KrinsCham]

Any chance you could let a few of these pupate and sell them to me to give them a go at breeding? I I usually breed sphinx moth species but I'm pretty confident I can breed these they look very similar to some of the white butterflies I bred years ago that were on cabbage, I have a hydroponic garden for the caterpillars I breed in winter and the pairing cages I have would be huge for this species and have the space that butterflies require for successful pairings. If I'm sucessfull I'd send you back some for yourself and share any important info with you. I also have other feeders I could trade in a week or so when my food shipment gets here.

Hello Dro B. Sure I will do a little collection of what is left and send them to you. I think it is a great idea to raise these little critters. Send me a PM with your address and I will do my best to get a bunch you can try to breed.

 

[Dro B]

Hello Dro B. Sure I will do a little collection of what is left and send them to you. I think it is a great idea to raise these little critters. Send me a PM with your address and I will do my best to get a bunch you can try to breed.

I did research and these are the same ones I bred, so I'm confident I can do it I'll pm you a bit later.

 

[Dro B]

Thanks @Kingkusk, for the identification of the worms. I have read many different recommendations to collect wild caught food to diversify as long as no pesticides are being used. When doing this are you saying that the only "logical" way to collect properly is to identify and understand the "composition" of all bugs prior to feeding, this seems impractical if not impossible for non-entomologists. I figured to start with some and see how he responded, also thought they looked similar to hornworms and I knew what they were eating was not toxic, so they were offered with logic, care and caution. Also most caterpillars that are toxic look toxic, I.E. in there coloring/patterning. If it is only logical to feed insects that one has identified and understood the composition of, prior to feeding then collecting insects should be a NOT be recommended and we should only be feeding farm raised. This is opposite of what I have read, do you know of any experts that recommend not collecting local insects?

This species eats many species of plant that contain mustard oil, which isn't so much toxic as it is foul tasting, and birds avoid this species even if they are on plants not containing the oil. Coloring isn't really a reliable indicator of toxic species as there are just as many non toxic species mimicking those that are. Also, just because something eats toxic plants doesn't mean it makes that insect poisonous, many beleive that hornworms are toxic because of what they eat, however it is false, they do not store toxins in their bodies. If they're fed tobacco the nicotine can affect certain predators like wasp larvae living inside the caterpillar, and having undigested tobacco in thier bodies can make most animals sick, but those eating tomato and potato and other foliage normally isn't gonna hilurt an animal that eats them. I still wouldn't use wild hornworms as feeders and definitely not regularly, it's not worth the risk but letting the hornworms clear thier bodies for 24+ hours would purge virtually all the toxins.