Gular Edema?

[jajeanpierre]

Hello jajeanpierre & thank you for taking the time to lend your expertise! In these past couple days we've certainly witnessed Buddha's edema vary in size.. overall, it seems to have lessened, but then at times it does seem pronounced. Definitely depends on the way he's perched.. When he's climbing downwards gravity takes effect, it grows bigger & seems to puff about his occipital lobes. Also, I am indeed a dame, but am not familiar with edemas myself.

I've learned a lot about Vitamin A & I thank everyone for helping with that. We've switched him over to silkworms for now (on a mulberry feed). Honestly, we haven't fed him crickets in a long time.. We've been cycling between silkworms, horn worms & dubias since roughly last Fall. If we pickup hornworms again, we'll load them with fresh veggies (versus the mash).

Do you think visiting the vet is a waste? She was originally recommended as a Herp specialized vet & is a very cool lady - She owns a handful of lizards & snakes herself, including savanna monitor lizard (SO COOL) & a gracillor chameleon she rehabilitated. We really do value her opinion & she seems to genuinely care about Buddha (she call's him "Big B" lol). She's the closest person to an expert we have access to here & has brought Buddha back from ailment before.

Idk, at this point it's like.. whatever we can do to learn more about where this imbalance is coming from. All we want is for Buddha to live a healthy life. If this edema is not as serious as it could be, maybe we'll just make adjustments to his diet & see how it goes?

Who is the vet?

A gracilior? Where did she get that? (I believe I am the only gracilior breeder in the US so unless it is a wild caught it probably came from me originally.)

Unless you are feeding your silkworms fresh mulberry leaves, they are eating a diet that is largely soy meal.

I really don't think a vet will be able to sort this out. It's something you will have to experiment with to find out the triggers for your particular animal. You need to keep records. It can take weeks or months to resolve an edema problem. Also, you will likely have false assumptions of the causes and get superstitious about things you think are triggers. I also think that once an animal has had edema, they are more likely to continue to have it.

A vet can help you find organ failure but really, what are you going to do about that? The testing will be expensive and there really is no solution. Kidney failure is not curable. If he isn't sick, I think a vet is a complete waste of time and money unless you want to pick their brains. I've spent money on vet visits to try to learn something from them.

I think there a a kazillion reasons for edemas and I believe it is all husbandry with a few exceptions such as organ failure, low protein from parasites, toxicosis. Something in their diet or their life is missing or in excess. It could be hydration. It could be natural light. It could be nutritional. The food we feed is garbage. I try to feed wild insects as often as I can because they are just so much more nutritionally dense than any farmed insect even with the best gut loading. The chameleons even notice the difference and get more excited over wild caught bugs.

 

[CJ's Exotics]

Who is the vet?

A gracilior? Where did she get that? (I believe I am the only gracilior breeder in the US so unless it is a wild caught it probably came from me originally.)

Unless you are feeding your silkworms fresh mulberry leaves, they are eating a diet that is largely soy meal.

I really don't think a vet will be able to sort this out. It's something you will have to experiment with to find out the triggers for your particular animal. You need to keep records. It can take weeks or months to resolve an edema problem. Also, you will likely have false assumptions of the causes and get superstitious about things you think are triggers. I also think that once an animal has had edema, they are more likely to continue to have it.

A vet can help you find organ failure but really, what are you going to do about that? The testing will be expensive and there really is no solution. Kidney failure is not curable. If he isn't sick, I think a vet is a complete waste of time and money unless you want to pick their brains. I've spent money on vet visits to try to learn something from them.

I think there a a kazillion reasons for edemas and I believe it is all husbandry with a few exceptions such as organ failure, low protein from parasites, toxicosis. Something in their diet or their life is missing or in excess. It could be hydration. It could be natural light. It could be nutritional. The food we feed is garbage. I try to feed wild insects as often as I can because they are just so much more nutritionally dense than any farmed insect even with the best gut loading. The chameleons even notice the difference and get more excited over wild caught bugs.

I love that word "kazillion". The only problem about feeding wild caught insects is that for those who live in urban, suburban, or some rural areas where pesticides or other possible intoxicants are used (such as agricultural pesticides for farming), because while the insect is still alive, which could mean the contaminants are weaker or take longer to take effect, some insects are very resistant to intoxicants, like some flies. I am too chicken to try wild insects because of where I live, lol, so go by judgement based on where you live, and if the insects themselves are harmful, @BuddhaBud.

 

[BuddhaBud]

I love that word "kazillion". The only problem about feeding wild caught insects is that for those who live in urban, suburban, or some rural areas where pesticides or other possible intoxicants are used (such as agricultural pesticides for farming), because while the insect is still alive, which could mean the contaminants are weaker or take longer to take effect, some insects are very resistant to intoxicants, like some flies. I am too chicken to try wild insects because of where I live, lol, so go by judgement based on where you live, and if the insects themselves are harmful, @BuddhaBud.

Thanks for the heads up @CJ's Exotics. I've read a few forum posts about the potential dangers of feeding wild insects as well. It totally makes sense.. who knows what those things have been exposed to. We live just outside the Twin Cities in MN & there is farm land near by (I've seen them spraying before). Our bugs mainly consist of mosquitoes, black flies, wasps, box elder & june bugs so... none of which I'd want to feed off

@jajeanpierre - Again, thank you for lending your expertise. Our vet said she takes in animals their owners couldn't properly care for, or have special needs, etc. in attempts to give them a better life & whatever specialized care they need. We can have a private conversation if you want to know more about her. At any rate, we'll continue documenting Buddha's progress & will shift the insect gut loads to organic greens. Perhaps we'll cancel the vet visit then & opt to pick her brain over the phone (she encouraged us to call for anything).

Speaking of nutrition, below is a nutritional profile of sorts we got from our reptile store - does this seem accurate?

 

[carol5208]

He looks great too me and I told you how edema will come and go. Personally I think a vet is a waste of time and money, not to mention stressfull on the animal itself when it comes to this condition. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BuddhaBud]

He looks great too me and I told you how edema will come and go. Personally I think a vet is a waste of time and money, not to mention stressfull on the animal itself when it comes to this condition. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you @carol5208 - seriously we appreciate it! Yeah, we'll postpone the vet visit & save the hassle for the lil' guy. We'll keep doing our homework & see what more we can learn to better help our Buddha

 

[carol5208]

Sounds like he is in good hands with you. Try not to worry too much about it! I know you want the best for him!!!

 

[kinyonga]

You said your chameleon was munching on the umbrella plant...I'm wondering if the things in the sap could be part of the problem? See this link for toxins....
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants/umbrella-tree

 

[BuddhaBud]

You said your chameleon was munching on the umbrella plant...I'm wondering if the things in the sap could be part of the problem? See this link for toxins....
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants/umbrella-tree

Whoa, are you kidding me?! This is the list I was going off - https://flchams.com/chameleon-safe-plant-list/ - FL Chams led me to believe they were safe, what the heck. Buddha's been free-ranging in umbrella plants for months & often eats the leaves.. The link you provided specifically notes dogs & cats... is there a possibility chameleons aren't affected by certain plants that may be poisonous to other animals?

 

[kinyonga]

Just like people some animals have bad reactions to things that another of the same species can handle...I thought it was something that hadn't been looked at yet and could be the culprit. Also I very rarely hear if chameleons eating the umbrella plant leaves...they eat pothos like crazy and hibiscus, etc....but not so much umbrella plants in my experience.

 

[BuddhaBud]

Just like people some animals have bad reactions to things that another of the same species can handle...I thought it was something that hadn't been looked at yet and could be the culprit. Also I very rarely hear if chameleons eating the umbrella plant leaves...they eat pothos like crazy and hibiscus, etc....but not so much umbrella plants in my experience.

Hmm, yeah - for sure. I didn't think of that... Thanks for pointing that out @kinyonga. He's been munching the baby leaves off the new plant we just introduced to his enclosure. We originally got him a pothos too, but found it had a mealybug infestation so we didn't use it. On the other hand, he's been eating umbrella plant leaves for much longer than he's had the edema.. Gah, so many variables!

 

[kinyonga]

Too many variables is why it's hard to pin down the edema so you just have to try things until you figure it out ...hopefully.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for the heads up @CJ's Exotics. I've read a few forum posts about the potential dangers of feeding wild insects as well. It totally makes sense.. who knows what those things have been exposed to. We live just outside the Twin Cities in MN & there is farm land near by (I've seen them spraying before). Our bugs mainly consist of mosquitoes, black flies, wasps, box elder & june bugs so... none of which I'd want to feed off

I've read this kind of argument many times and to be honest, it baffles me. Where do you think your own food comes from? It comes from farms which often use pesticides. It is one thing to do a field collection from an area with is likely heavily contaminated by chemicals but that is not the same as a more natural area.

Most people's and stores' crickets are absolutely disgusting and covered in pathogens and often with toxins.

There are many many bugs in your area other than the few you list. Look for green bugs, grasshoppers and things like that. Identify what you find if you are worried and find out its level of toxicity. Think about what it ate. A hornworm on a tomato or potato plant is not the same as the hornworm you raise yourself. Think poison dart frogs--they are only deadly toxic because of the ants they eat in the wild. I would avoid any hairy caterpillars. (If you are interested in why I say that, research Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome and the research around that problem in 2001/2002.) I know one very successful breeder who will dump everything he finds in his net into his cages, including whatever spider there might be in the net with the exception of one particularly toxic spider.

I'm kind of amazed how much North American culture has distanced itself from the land. There are kids who are not intellectually deficient who do not know that the chicken in the cellophane package in the grocery store was a living feathered animal or that carrots come out of the ground. I've seen people pass by wild blackberries feeling they are unsafe to eat.

I'll PM you re your vet.

 

[CJ's Exotics]

I've read this kind of argument many times and to be honest, it baffles me. Where do you think your own food comes from? It comes from farms which often use pesticides. It is one thing to do a field collection from an area with is likely heavily contaminated by chemicals but that is not the same as a more natural area.

Most people's and stores' crickets are absolutely disgusting and covered in pathogens and often with toxins.

There are many many bugs in your area other than the few you list. Look for green bugs, grasshoppers and things like that. Identify what you find if you are worried and find out its level of toxicity. Think about what it ate. A hornworm on a tomato or potato plant is not the same as the hornworm you raise yourself. Think poison dart frogs--they are only deadly toxic because of the ants they eat in the wild. I would avoid any hairy caterpillars. (If you are interested in why I say that, research Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome and the research around that problem in 2001/2002.) I know one very successful breeder who will dump everything he finds in his net into his cages, including whatever spider there might be in the net with the exception of one particularly toxic spider.

I'm kind of amazed how much North American culture has distanced itself from the land. There are kids who are not intellectually deficient who do not know that the chicken in the cellophane package in the grocery store was a living feathered animal or that carrots come out of the ground. I've seen people pass by wild blackberries feeling they are unsafe to eat.

I'll PM you re your vet.

Just my opinion, I just don't like the idea of feeding wild insects, especially in my area.

 

[BuddhaBud]

I've read this kind of argument many times and to be honest, it baffles me. Where do you think your own food comes from? It comes from farms which often use pesticides. It is one thing to do a field collection from an area with is likely heavily contaminated by chemicals but that is not the same as a more natural area.

Most people's and stores' crickets are absolutely disgusting and covered in pathogens and often with toxins.

There are many many bugs in your area other than the few you list. Look for green bugs, grasshoppers and things like that. Identify what you find if you are worried and find out its level of toxicity. Think about what it ate. A hornworm on a tomato or potato plant is not the same as the hornworm you raise yourself. Think poison dart frogs--they are only deadly toxic because of the ants they eat in the wild. I would avoid any hairy caterpillars. (If you are interested in why I say that, research Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome and the research around that problem in 2001/2002.) I know one very successful breeder who will dump everything he finds in his net into his cages, including whatever spider there might be in the net with the exception of one particularly toxic spider.

I'm kind of amazed how much North American culture has distanced itself from the land. There are kids who are not intellectually deficient who do not know that the chicken in the cellophane package in the grocery store was a living feathered animal or that carrots come out of the ground. I've seen people pass by wild blackberries feeling they are unsafe to eat.

I'll PM you re your vet.

I actually work in the organic food industry & am pretty familiar with the horrors of conventional farming - We always buy & support organic & non-GMO over conventional because we're not in favor of poisoning ourselves with pesticides, fungicides, herbicides & glyphosate. We don't feed conventional produce to our cham, either, or his feeders. I agree - today's educational system basically fails to teach the importance of sustainable agriculture. We do a lot of work to support organic farmers around the US to do what they do. Healthy, delicious & sustainable food is way more important then most realize!

The fact that you have healthy wild insects you can trust for your reptiles is amazing! We live in suburbia where everyone sprays their lawns for dandelions & ponds for mosquitoes

I'll check on that note & get back to you