Gular Edema

[Jessandsprinkes]

• Your Chameleon - Species/sex: Male Panther. About a year old.
• Handling - I handle him a few times a week, mostly because he paws to get out to poop haha. I sometimes will encourage him to come on my hand with feeding.

• Feeding - I feed him once a day, 8sh crickets, some silkworms, sometimes Black soldier fly larvae, around 8-10 am. I dust with calcium without D3 every feeding and with D3 once/twice a month. I gutload with veggies (carrots, dandelion greens, collared greens, and apples.

• Supplements - I dust with Pangea Cal without D3 every day and repashy low D3 once or twice a month
• Watering - I have a mistking set up, he gets a 10 min misting morning time right when lights come on and 10 minutes evening, right before lights out. I never see him drink.

• Fecal Description - Usually looks good- urine has been pale/white but occasionally orange and that is why I bought a mist system. He has been tested for parasites and it came back clear.

• History - His enclosure is next to a window, it does not get direct sun/ there are lots of trees. He likes to look out.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen XL reptibreeze cage
• Lighting - reptisun 5.0 T5 HO UVB light and 75 watt heat lamp. lights go on at 6:30 and off at 5:30 pm.
• Temperature - I have a digital thermometer, the basking spot is 85-90 degrees, mid cage 70-73 and lower 70 degrees F. I have Been running a heater, he is in my living room and it gets cold.
• Humidity - 40-60% depending. The humidity levels in LA have been pretty decent. I mist if I feel like they are low and I haven't felt the need to get a fogger. Measure with pangea temp and humidity gauge.
• Plants - I use a variety, pothos, dracena, money tree, spider plant, ferns, etc.
• Placement - Next to a window that does not get direct sun. lots of tree cover. I shut the blinds when it is cold outside.
• Location - Los Angeles

Current Problem - I am worried because I am noticing gular edema the past few months. I thought it would go away on its own since my husbandry seems okay to me. It got way worse yesterday. I don’t know if my supplements are off/ what the cause is. Online there is a lot of mixed reasons and I want to help my little guy ): it’s easier to see when he is sleeping because it pushes up against the branch.

Could the silkworm chow be the issue?

Should I cut back supplements? I started repashy with A and D3 twice a month instead of once because he gets less sun since it’s winter.

Any advice is welcome. Thanks so much.

 

[Sherbertsmysunshine]

Hello! give me a second and I'll see what I can do.

 

[Beman]

Hi there are you using anything additional like bee pollen?

Everything in your husbandry is pretty on point with the exception of basking temps being too high. For basking you want 80-85 max.

May I see a pic of your cage set up?

 

[Sherbertsmysunshine]

I agree with @Beman everything seems to be good, other than the basking. I would try not to handle as often.
Ditto on pictures. How long have you had him?

 

[Jessandsprinkes]

Hi there are you using anything additional like bee pollen?

Everything in your husbandry is pretty on point with the exception of basking temps being too high. For basking you want 80-85 max.

May I see a pic of your cage set up?

Hi there! I haven’t used bee pollen. I will get his basking temps down I was just following my breeder recommendations. This is all I have right now on cage pictures. He spends 99% of the day basking

 

[Jessandsprinkes]

I agree with @Beman everything seems to be good, other than the basking. I would try not to handle as often.
Ditto on pictures. How long have you had him?

I will reduce handling unless he comes out to me. I have had him since June, about 7 months.

I did notice the edema starting a few months ago but I didn't think much of it (I thought it was normal for some reason until I googled yesterday). First cham, so I am still learning.

 

[elizaann2]

Just want to pop in here and say hello and welcome! I love how much plant coverage you have in his enclosure. Looks like a really awesome piece of the jungle

 

[CalamityCrow]

I'm no expert, so hopefully others pop in here... But from what I can tell, your husbandry looks pretty great, minus dropping basking area by a few degrees, which was already addressed. Your gutloading and vitamin rotation seems good too so I wouldn't anticipate an A or D3 overdose either.

Edema can be indicative of organ issues. The only thing I could think of from a husbandry perspective is that the Pangea cal has spirulina and kelp in it - perhaps his system isn't liking that very much? I'd suggest a supplement like repticalcium without D3 or Arcadia Pro Cal. One of those might help balance his system out, as those don't contain the other items like Pangea does.

The only other thought I have is that perhaps he does have some organ issues (liver maybe?) caused by something internal that a vet would have to check out. If you have the capability, a vet visit for some blood work may show some unbalanced numbers that you could target. Then again, as my doc put it "blood only tells us what it can tell us at time of draw. It's never a whole picture." It may or may not give you more information but I don't think it can really hurt.

 

[Beman]

Yeah So I highly agree with @CalamityCrow with switching the calcium without d3. I would recommend purchasing the repashy NoD calcium. It is super fine and nothing added to it.

I would personally start here and see over the next month if it starts to subside. Edema reduces slowly. The good thing here is you said the only time it is super noticeable is when he is laying down so that means he is not holding a ton of fluid there so the reduction should move more quickly.

 

[nightanole]

My goto for edema is remove all vitamin/mineral supplements for 30 days and see if it goes away.

Only give them calcium without D3.

9 out of 10 times its due to a build up of fat soluble vitamin.

Vitamins A, D, E, and K are the fat-soluble vitamins

 

[Beman]

My goto for edema is remove all vitamin/mineral supplements for 30 days and see if it goes away.

Only give them calcium without D3.

9 out of 10 times its due to a build up of fat soluble vitamin.

Vitamins A, D, E, and K are the fat-soluble vitamins

They have hardly been using a multivitamin though. Started out only using repashy LoD once a month. Now are either doing it once or twice a month. You don't think the additives in their pangea calcium without D3 could be causing the issue? I mean we see it with too much bee pollen as well. This cham may be more sensitive to the spirulina they add in.

 

[nightanole]

They have hardly been using a multivitamin though. Started out only using repashy LoD once a month. Now are either doing it once or twice a month. You don't think the additives in their pangea calcium without D3 could be causing the issue? I mean we see it with too much bee pollen as well. This cham may be more sensitive to the spirulina they add in.

"Should I cut back supplements? I started repashy with A and D3 twice a month instead of once because he gets less sun since it’s winter."

At minimum they doubled the monthly dosage recently.

Every cham is a different, they can go 5 years on the same sched and then end up with edema and need to cut back.

It could be the gut load is perfect or even too good, and the supplements are building up over time.


Or it has nothing to do with supplements, but removing them for 30 days is an easy and non harmful test. Id say its less stressful on the cham than boxing them up in winter to get poked by the vet for bloodwork.

 

[Beman]

"Should I cut back supplements? I started repashy with A and D3 twice a month instead of once because he gets less sun since it’s winter."

At minimum they doubled the monthly dosage recently.

Every cham is a different, they can go 5 years on the same sched and then end up with edema and need to cut back.

It could be the gut load is perfect or even too good, and the supplements are building up over time.


Or it has nothing to do with supplements, but removing them for 30 days is an easy and non harmful test. Id say its less stressful on the cham than boxing them up in winter to get poked by the vet for bloodwork.

I know what you are saying... What I mean is you are suggesting to just go with the calcium without D3 for 30 days. Which I agree is totally valid but I think it could be their pangea calcium which has more than just plain calcium and they should switch this to ensure that is not the cause.

 

[nightanole]

I know what you are saying... What I mean is you are suggesting to just go with the calcium without D3 for 30 days. Which I agree is totally valid but I think it could be their pangea calcium which has more than just plain calcium and they should switch this to ensure that is not the cause.

I do not know if the kelp meal, spirulina algae would or would not cause it. That would be "food" and not a chemical vitamin. Im not good with food based supplements like bee pollen to say you can over do it.

Kelp meal is a rich and dependable source of 60 minerals and elements including iodine, 21 amino acids, and 12 vitamins (including A, C, B12, thiamin, and vitamin E or tocopherol)"
Well there is two fatties right there...

The algae has B complex vitamins, beta-carotene, vitamin E, manganese, zinc, copper, iron, selenium.

There is another source of E...


So yea if the Calcium is cut with a large amount of both those supplements as filler, that could be the cause. Pure calcium has to be cut alot with something, as just a wee bit of pure powder will give even humans a bad time.

 

[Beman]

I do not know if the kelp meal, spirulina algae would or would not cause it. That would be "food" and not a chemical vitamin. Im not good with food based supplements like bee pollen to say you can over do it.

Kelp meal is a rich and dependable source of 60 minerals and elements including iodine, 21 amino acids, and 12 vitamins (including A, C, B12, thiamin, and vitamin E or tocopherol)"
Well there is two fatties right there...

The algae has B complex vitamins, beta-carotene, vitamin E, manganese, zinc, copper, iron, selenium.

There is another source of E...


So yea if the Calcium is cut with a large amount of both those supplements as filler, that could be the cause. Pure calcium has to be cut alot with something, as just a wee bit of pure powder will give even humans a bad time.

Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I was giving correct info. I know how much you know about this stuff and I wanted to make sure my theory could be plausible.

 

[janjan20]

Just want to chime in since one of my guys has been dealing with occasional edema for 3yrs now. I have a thread that I’m working on updating…anyhoo everyone here has given great advice. I agree with the supplement issue being addressed first. From my experience so far the edema has been “seasonal“ and will usually start when we have our first cold snap (I live in FL). Last year I stopped the multi before it got cold and just did plain calcium very lightly dusted. He still had edema but it was very slight. This year I did it differently and his edema was very pronounced. In my opinion I would just stick with plain calcium and see if it resolves. I also added more hydrating feeders like silk worms to keep him a little more hydrated.

 

[Jessandsprinkes]

Just want to chime in since one of my guys has been dealing with occasional edema for 3yrs now. I have a thread that I’m working on updating…anyhoo everyone here has given great advice. I agree with the supplement issue being addressed first. From my experience so far the edema has been “seasonal“ and will usually start when we have our first cold snap (I live in FL). Last year I stopped the multi before it got cold and just did plain calcium very lightly dusted. He still had edema but it was very slight. This year I did it differently and his edema was very pronounced. In my opinion I would just stick with plain calcium and see if it resolves. I also added more hydrating feeders like silk worms to keep him a little more hydrated.

Thank you for this. I cut out vitamin/D3 for a month and no change ): I think it is seasonal for us as well. Once it got cold it popped up.