Gular Edema

[Brad Ramsey]

I have no experience to date with this issue.
I noticed the problem with Alice yesterday.
The swelling is quite evident and the only thing different is that she is 11 days gravid (for the first time)
I spoke to a very experienced keeper last night who asked if carrots were part of my gut load (they are) and it was suggested I remove them.
Along these lines of thinking it occurred to me that I had been using dandelion greens for the first time in the last week (also very high in beta carotene).
Both of these have been removed.
It can't be over supplementation, she hasn't had herptivite here ever and D3 has not been more than a few feeders once a month lately.
Her urates are pure white and she drinks very well.
We'll see if removing the carrots and dandelion improves the situation. No one else is showing any signs of this problem.
I welcome any and all thoughts/suggestions.

-Brad

 

[jannb]

Brad; My little girl Camille had this for months. Dr. Alfonso said it could be from under supplementation or over supplementation. After months of trying to adjust her supplements we finally figured out it was our water. We started buying bottled water and after a few weeks it was completely gone. Now we have a Reverse Osmosis Water System and she is fine. PM sent Jann

 

[Titan]

Post Us a picture if you can, I recently recieved a Fichers female that has a strange looking throat, Almost as if another Cham bit it, somewhere in shipping. Just curious what your looks like, & maybe my supposed bite is something else?

 

[laurie]

Brad I can't offer anything helpful to you but keep us posted. I also use carrots in my gutload.

 

[Syn]

I can't offer any help either, but if carrots are linked with this, I will be removing them from my gutloads.

I hope Alice gets better soon, and I agree with Laurie, keep us posted!

 

[Brad Ramsey]

She's quite uncooperative.
Here is the best picture I could get.
Notice the swelling extends down past her front leg ... it's hard to see in the gular region as she puffed up for the camera.
I should also note that she is eating just fine.

-Brad

 

[Cainschams]

Hey Brad!! i cant give you much input but I can tell you she wasnt supplemented a lot here either. I supplement regularly but very very very lightly. I think gutloading is just as important as supps or maybe even more. I hope things turn around quickly.

Jann, did you test your water, if so what was causing the issue? I use well water and have been for 2 years with no apparent issues so far

 

[Nicodemayo]

Brad, from what ive seen, edema will vary from female to female and a couple of my female panthers get it when they are gravid, and after they lay, it subsides within two or 3 days. I had a 3rd female that would get it as well when she was gravid, but I very sparingly supplement her food when she is gravid and she doesn't get it. It doesn't appear to have any immediate negative effects on them, and they can still function like normal, I have adjusted supplementing for the girls that normally have it (including not supplementing at all), and have never seen any changes in size for changes in supplements. More water seems to take the swelling down, but I think edema is a condition that needs alot more research. Theres so many theories on what causes it, and I am looking forward to the day where we know exactly what causes it, and what will cause it to subside. Also I will add, I have also tried using filtered water and sprayed the females by hand and have not seen any changes either, so Its beyond me really.

 

[Syn]

Brad.. that picture has me worried a little. My veiled looked like that once, but not as badly. I was thinking it was just a bone. As a matter of fact, mid post I just looked at him and it seems to be a little bigger than the rest of him.. I'm hoping it's just because he is in an odd position.. (is this a female only thing?)

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Jannb,

Thanks for the info from Dr. Alfonso.

I think in combination with the possibility of too much beta carotene in my gut load this past week, her current "pregnant state" may be to blame.
Obviously I cannot be sure at this point as she has no history of cycling even infertile eggs.
The water here is unlikely to be the issue, I have used it for chameleons for over three years with no issue.
I will post updates on her condition as changes occur.

Thank you for your help everyone.

And Syn, I think you are seeing the hyoid bone on your male and not edema ... however, you are welcome to post a picture on this thread.

-Brad

 

[jannb]

Here's a pic of Camille when she had edema

 

[Syn]

Brad,

It feels like a bone to me. Thanks.

 

[Miss Lily]

Lily has edema occasionally too. Usually when gravid. I have noticed that it varies from day to day, even at different times of the day. I seem to remember reading somewhere (probably on here) that females can get edema when gravid much like humans can get water retention around the ankles when pregnant. I think I also read somewhere that it can be a symptom of dehydration. I do notice that the days when Lily drinks more the swelling is not so noticeable and even disappears completely.

 

[Titan]

I'm learing something here! Thanks all, Miss Lily,dehydration a possible cause? cool. hey Brad I'm gonna post some pics of the Fishers female I mentioned before, Im pretty sure the Bite indication I thought it to be, but maybe you can sum it up for me?
On nice thing about Fishers I gotta say they are the Movie Stars of Chams It appears they love posing for cameras! I mean check these photos out, I just went up and took these, she even politely posed both sides for me without moving from here spot! She is not the prettiest Chams had a rough go getting to this country, But she is doing real well now. + she is Gravid.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Brad,

I'm inclined to agree with the the opinions that gravid females may exhibit edema and that there may not be much need to do anything about it assuming that it goes away at some point after egg production is complete. It seems to be something that pops-up in posts about gravid females and that no serious health issue remained after egg production.

Here's a short thread where the interesting part is that this breeder has had 1 in 4 females show signs of gular edema related to being gravid.
http://www.alexhuereptiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18694

 

[kinyonga]

jannb said..."Dr. Alfonso said it could be from under supplementation or over supplementation."...what was it about the water that he said caused the problem??

Brad...since beta carotene can't build up in the system, why do you think it has something to do with it? Just curious....trying to understand.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Brad, are you giving her ANY preformed vitamin A?

Every case I have seen personally, of gular edema in a gravid female, was a result of too little vitamin A.

If She has not had any preformed A in her diet, go grab some reptivite, and give her a dusted cricket.

I had a female come down with this a year ago or so - first time I've seen it in one of my animals. The reason was that I had stopped using reptivite for a few months, since my daughter dumped it all out. I went and got a multivitamin wiht preformed A (fluker's), and it was all gone within 2 weeks.

Seen it with melleri and jacksonii a bunch of times - all the same issue. No preformed A in their diet. Cleared up in weeks.

Depending on the gutload, you may not ever need to use preformed A. I know many people have never had issues, and they use no supplementation.
I am, admittedly, lazy in my feeder foods, so some supplementation wont' hurt!

 

[kinyonga]

Eric said..."Depending on the gutload, you may not ever need to use preformed A."...what in your gutload would provide preformed vitamin A?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

some premade foods, chick starters, rabbit foods with vitamins added, baby cereals, all sorts of grains. Or, adding multivitamins WITH preformed vitamin A to the cricket food.

If you only mix in small amounts, you know you're only getting small amounts in the lizards.

When I say "not ever need to use" preformed vitamin A, I mean in a direct dusting of the feeders.

I try to give them a good mix of grains and veggies, but my lizards get a good, regular supplementation schedule. Very small amounts, very often.

 

[Nicodemayo]

Ill be watching this thread closely. Eric, I have also heard that as well, that lack of pre-formed vitamin A will cause it. I have also heard accounts of edema subsiding in young panthers after they were given tiny amounts of cod liver oil, BUT I know there is a debate on that stuff alone, so we wont go there. I am not at all reccomending it, but I have heard more than one keeper swear on a vit A deficiency. I have never messed with it, because I have only seen it occur in gravid females, so I would prefer not to risk it.