Gut loading frenzy

[PetNcs]

Gutloading Frenzy Again and Again

I am sorry to not be enthusiastic about gutloading, and this comment is made not to offend anyone but itnis finally time to face the FACTS and NOT continue with the gutloading nonsense that has spread as a fashion accross internet...
You get recommendations how to feed apples, papaya, orange, lettuce, collard greens and spirulina and rosted almonds, granola and dried blackberries etc. etc.
The cyberspace is overloaded with gutloading recommendations... And debates are vivid and sort of “fact-based”, pseudospecialists dare to produce gutloading sheets with totally weird recommendations in bad FB groups (no wonder),
On web-pages and in Youtube. Even otherwise serious communities like e.g.
Chameleon Forums fell into this trap and spreads questionable non-verified info.
These all recommendations have absolutely no scientific basis, they are repeated and parotted imaginations and formulations of people that dare to introduce to the community things that absolutely do not make sense and are not backed with any measurable experience and no science.

The good news is:

Almost all what is shown is GREAT AS FOOD FOR FEEDERS

BUT, if speaking for GUTLOADING, it almost all DOES NOT MAKE SENSE:

1. IT IS UNNATURAL - most of the shown ingredients you will never ever find in the stomachs of insects that are eaten by a Chameleons in the wild,
with few exceptions like maybe the juices of some fruits but definitely not apple... The reason is very simple, the insects living in areas that chameleons live in, have no access to this type of food and even if they would have, they would not eat it. So again, it is not natural.

2. CHAMELEONS CAN NOT DIGEST PLANT
MATTER
Therefore, to force them to swallow an insect which is fully gutloaded with something that they cannot digest is absolutely meaningless and can be even harmful. It is the same as if you would gutload with sand. Chameleons cannot digest sand so why would you give them?

All the concept of gut-loading, If it would be to increase the nutritional value of the feeder, is false. Because to increase the nutritional value the major part of the food inevitably must be digestible. And it is NOT.

So, what to do?
DO: FEED FEEDERS HIGH QUALITY FOOD so that they become more nutritional
DO: GUTLOAD FEEDERS WITH SOMETHING THEY CAN DIGEST: BEE POLLEN AND VITAMINS AND MINERAL MIXTURES

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."to force them to swallow an insect which is fully gutloaded with something that they cannot digest is absolutely meaningless and can be even harmful"... How would it be harmful?
Would it not at last be roughage for the chameleon to help the insect through the chameleon's digestive system?
So are the insects they eat in the wild not full of food that the chameleon can't digest too? What do the insects they eat in the wild eat?

You said..."DO: FEED FEEDERS HIGH QUALITY FOOD so that they become more nutritional"... Exactly what I've always tried to do.
You said..."DO: GUTLOAD FEEDERS WITH SOMETHING THEY CAN DIGEST: BEE POLLEN AND VITAMINS AND MINERAL MIXTURES"...is dusting the insects with these things not enough?

You said..."most of the shown ingredients you will never ever find in the stomachs of insects that are eaten by a Chameleons in the wild,
with few exceptions like maybe the juices of some fruits but definitely not apple... The reason is very simple, the insects living in areas that chameleons live in, have no access to this type of food and even if they would have, they would not eat it. So again, it is not natural"...but aren't those things found in the stomachs of the insects we use here to feed the chameleons and thus should make the feeders healthy?

 

[nightanole]

Batter (or bitter?) UP

DO: FEED FEEDERS HIGH QUALITY FOOD so that they become more nutritional

Feeding "high quality food" results in "more bugs" or "bigger bugs". But if you take a sample of "poor diet" bugs and a sample of "high diet" bugs, both with empty digestive tracks. The results will be the same if you grind them up. Living things are like legos, if you need 2 red pieces to make a bug, you will only have bugs that have 2 red pieces. You will not have bugs with 1 red piece or no pieces.


DO: GUTLOAD FEEDERS WITH SOMETHING THEY CAN DIGEST: BEE POLLEN AND VITAMINS AND MINERAL MIXTURES

Calcium is literally poison to bugs. So you can not constantly feed them a high calcium diet...




But i do find one thing odd/funny. Everyone says chameleons can not digest plant matter. Yet you never hear of "bad poops" full of undigested plant mater. You never hear of prolapse/constipation from trying to excrete undigested matter in chameleons fed gutloaded feeders. On the other hand if you feed Mr. domestic bunny anything other than "bunny food", It trying to excrete out that carrot is going to result in basically excreting shrapnel and you will get constipation and prolapse. And the poop literally has pieces of chewed up orange carrot in it.

 

[nick barta]

This is going to be a LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG thread...we have somewhat opposing information with Kinyoga's response, let's keep it civil, and be nice!

My 2 cents worth, Peter's point number 2 may not be understood by me, here we go: With some exceptions, most insects in Madagascar, Africa and worldwide eat plant matter, with exceptions of some predatory insects that generally eat other insects. If that point is valid, most insects eaten by chameleons are vegetarians, the value in gut loading an insect is not to have the chameleon digest plant matter in the insects gut, but to have a healthy insect to be digested by the chameleon providing protein.

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[nick barta]

Niteanole, you posted as I was writing before me, my comment about being nice has nothing to do with your post!

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[kinyonga]

@nick barta said..."we have somewhat opposing information with Kinyoga's response"...opposing??? They were just questions being asked to understand/learn.

Nick said..."most insects eaten by chameleons are vegetarians, the value in gut loading an insect is not to have the chameleon digest plant matter in the insects gut, but to have a healthy insect to be digested by the chameleon providing protein"...this is what Imwas thinking too....if most insects they eat are vegetarian.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think everyone including petr brings up good points and I'd like to follow along in this thread. When petr says it could be harmful, I wonder if he refers to the anti nutrients that most plants carry to some degree.

 

[nightanole]

Niteanole, you posted as I was writing before me, my comment about being nice has nothing to do with your post!

CHEERS!

Nick

Oh im balling my eyes out as im throwing left over pumpkin puree into my dubia bin

Pretty sure chams dont grow in pumpkin land...

 

[PetNcs]

You said..."to force them to swallow an insect which is fully gutloaded with something that they cannot digest is absolutely meaningless and can be even harmful"... How would it be harmful?
Would it not at last be roughage for the chameleon to help the insect through the chameleon's digestive system?
So are the insects they eat in the wild not full of food that the chameleon can't digest too? What do the insects they eat in the wild eat?

I will try to amswer step by step

I say it Is meaningless:
And I insist
If we feed the feeders with something they even do not eat in tje wild, is such gut content unnatural and meaningless (because we can feed them natural and meaningful food) so if it is not beneficial, it is same way neutral as in the wild because they are used to eat it

It can be even harmful
I insist
We know too little about this area to make so irrespomsible experiments to gutload the feeders with obscure stuff unknown for their neither as a nutrition nor as a passive gutload...
Few examples:
1. to add acids like citric acid, wine acid, apple acid contained in fruits especially in citrus fruits in bigh concentrations causes acidosis, a sever metabolic disorder than destroys homeostasis and can lead to many consequences including organ failure and death
2. To feed almonds, which might be rich in cyanide might be fatal. Lower vertebrates might be extremely sensitive to it and hyperreact as it damages CNS and heart or it might cause non-identifiable cumulative poisoning
3. Spirulina, many people uncritically swear on, can be comtaminated with toxins, self produce heavy toxins like microcystine, know to be lethal while damaging the liver or Not only boosting the imune system but also can cause strengthening of autoimune reactions or preventing blood clotting or is known to cause allergic reactions...
We know sinfully little about chameleon specific digestion to dare experimenting with these substances
Especially when the sensitivity of chameleons to them is unknown and when we have virtually no accessible tests to monitor the process and find out the real impact of these substances on their health and life.

 

[Pearl Fields]

wait, so then what kind of vitamin/mineral powders would we gutload with.

 

[PetNcs]

Would it not at last be roughage for the chameleon to help the insect through the chameleon's digestive system?

I answered this question this week already. one of the most likely theories why comedians feed on leaves seems to be my theory of the peristaltic aid which works in a way that the leaf delivers indigestible roughage that wrap around the gut content like a cigar and helps the peristaltic to pass it through the intestine.
The undigestible plant matter in the guts off insects is however finally grand it to such an extent that it simply cannot play this role at all. Therefore, if the theory is right, it is absolutely meaningless in this process

 

[Haley Hendrix]

I just wonder about this because chameleons eat plants and like said above they aren’t constipated or have diarrhea. Also, along with feeding the bugs greens, fruits and vegetables. They are getting dusted with the vitamins and minerals that you are recommending. If the plants made the chameleon sick i don’t think they would continue to eat them. You’ve used the example sand, saying that giving the cham greens and plants are the same as giving them sand. But, chameleons eat plants on there own nobody is forcing them to eat them. I’ve also seen chameleons eat strawberries, flowers, etc. And again, nothing bad comes from that. My very experienced keepers offer fruits to their chameleons and they are healthy.

 

[PetNcs]

So are the insects they eat in the wild not full of food that the chameleon can't digest too? What do the insects they eat in the wild eat?

Yes of course they are full of These substances.But the most insects like orthopterans, dipterans and hymenopterans actually do
Not feed on too variaBle diet but are in fact food specialists.
In Yemen chameleons and in Panthers alike, the bastly most frequent wild gutload is pollen, nectar, sweet fruit juices and in very low Minority simply grass.

Never the issues we see in CF gutloading chart which really from this point of View is absoluteky weird and wrong and who dared tk
Pit this together has not answered even the basic questionsMaybe I rudely but openly ask here! And I am permanently challenged
But di not get any meaningful
Answer...

 

[PetNcs]

You said..."DO: FEED FEEDERS HIGH QUALITY FOOD so that they become more nutritional"... Exactly what I've always tried to do.
You said..."DO: GUTLOAD FEEDERS WITH SOMETHING THEY CAN DIGEST: BEE POLLEN AND VITAMINS AND MINERAL MIXTURES"...is dusting the insects with these things not enough?

It is acknowledgeable
Rhat yoj have always
Done it

And yes, it seems to be enough.
But as some of the feeders no
Not bold it on the surface if the bodies well, gutloading is an equal and valid option to administer it too

 

[PetNcs]

You said..."most of the shown ingredients you will never ever find in the stomachs of insects that are eaten by a Chameleons in the wild,
with few exceptions like maybe the juices of some fruits but definitely not apple... The reason is very simple, the insects living in areas that chameleons live in, have no access to this type of food and even if they would have, they would not eat it. So again, it is not natural"...but aren't those things found in the stomachs of the insects we use here to feed the chameleons and thus should make the feeders healthy?

In this aspect, we are completely on the same boat. If we need to feed the insects with these substances let us let them enough time to digest it and turn it metabolically into integral parts of their bodies but not recommend and advertise it as a gut load which is a natural as you and me clearly state.

If we do so,
We will be safe definitely!

 

[PetNcs]

DO: FEED FEEDERS HIGH QUALITY FOOD so that they become more nutritional

Feeding "high quality food" results in "more bugs" or "bigger bugs". But if you take a sample of "poor diet" bugs and a sample of "high diet" bugs, both with empty digestive tracks. The results will be the same if you grind them up. Living things are like legos, if you need 2 red pieces to make a bug, you will only have bugs that have 2 red pieces. You will not have bugs with 1 red piece or no pieces.

Not fully truth
The. Utritjonal value of well
Fed insects is onjectively higjer than if fed poor food

The aize
Aspect is there. Ut. It
As. Lack
And white bkw you tey to present it.

If you were right, dietology would not
Exist as a
Science.

Your logig
Fots
Only to the xase, when the. Ugs receive exactly such food,
Wbich they need in full withkut any compromises.

 

[PetNcs]

DO: GUTLOAD FEEDERS WITH SOMETHING THEY CAN DIGEST: BEE POLLEN AND VITAMINS AND MINERAL MIXTURES

Calcium is literally poison to bugs. So you can not constantly feed them a high calcium diet...

IMHO
You comfuse here as many people the lrocess
Of
FEEDING THE FEEDER
AND
GUTLOADING

Which are two completely different approaches differing mainly with what remains in the gut in the moment of feeding the feeder to the chameleon

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."1. to add acids like citric acid, wine acid, apple acid contained in fruits especially in citrus fruits in bigh concentrations causes acidosis, a sever metabolic disorder than destroys homeostasis and can lead to many consequences including organ failure and death"...this is why I've always limited the fruit to very very little when feeding the insects.

You said..."2. To feed almonds, which might be rich in cyanide might be fatal. Lower vertebrates might be extremely sensitive to it and hyperreact as it damages CNS and heart or it might cause non-identifiable cumulative poisoning"...I've never used almonds because of the cyanide.

You said..."3. Spirulina, many people uncritically swear on, can be comtaminated with toxins, self produce heavy toxins like microcystine, know to be lethal while damaging the liver or Not only boosting the imune system but also can cause strengthening of autoimune reactions or preventing blood clotting or is known to cause allergic reactions"...this I've never used either.

Nice to know that my reasoning isn't too bad!

 

[PetNcs]

This is going to be a LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG thread...we have somewhat opposing information with Kinyoga's response, let's keep it civil, and be nice!

My 2 cents worth, Peter's point number 2 may not be understood by me, here we go: With some exceptions, most insects in Madagascar, Africa and worldwide eat plant matter, with exceptions of some predatory insects that generally eat other insects. If that point is valid, most insects eaten by chameleons are vegetarians, the value in gut loading an insect is not to have the chameleon digest plant matter in the insects gut, but to have a healthy insect to be digested by the chameleon providing protein.

CHEERS!

Nick

Well,
Yiu
Come
Back late and say in otjer wirds
Exactly what I say when pointing out the heavy misunderstood
Distinction between

FEEDING THE FEEDER (for the purpose its body to become highly nutritional food)
And
GITLOADING (for the pirpose to ise tje feeders. Ody as
A transport ebiće fir
Something, we flrcefully want the chameleon to
Swallow And digest)

But Nick,
As you do
Business
With hutloading stuff:

What is your scientific
Base
Formyour
Mixtures,
Please?

 

[PetNcs]

I think everyone including petr brings up good points and I'd like to follow along in this thread. When petr says it could be harmful, I wonder if he refers to the anti nutrients that most plants carry to some degree.

P´ease
Read my answer to Kinyonga, I
Am very detailed in answering this question including examples