Gut loading frenzy

[Lennoncham]

Well this thread went down hill.

when I first started researching chameleons and “gutloading” insects my understanding was that you feed the bugs whatever (but still good food) but then 24 hrs before feeding them to your chameleon you feed them a “gutload” so they would have that food conating the nutrients in their gut (as the word suggests) to pass onto the chameleon.

people used to recommend having 2 bins. 1 with the main bug colony and 1 with bugs that you gutload before feeding off. I used to do this but now I just feed them good food all the time.

I actually agree with @PetNcs here that the term “gutloading” is misleading and suggest that that you are trying to pass on the stomach contents.

 

[Ares05]

Well this was entertaining to say the least

Knew as soon as this was posted that I needed to get out some popcorn and watch this unfold...

Aside from the bickering, great debate. I think I will continue gutloading, for healthy buggies.... I am with ferretinmyshoes on this one.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

My goal was not to have people side with me, although I appreciate the support. My goal was simply to engage in conversation about a topic that interests me and that was lacking any scientific evidence in the discussion. Gutloading is the approved term through multiple peer reviewed sources over the last few decades. It doesn’t mean to literally load the guts with undigested food. It just doesn’t. And if we look at the digestive transit times in Acheta domesticus (house cricket) most of digestion occurs in the foregut (crickets have an alimentary canal technically rather than intestines but whatever) within 3-5 hours of ingestion. so by definition, as long as feeders are not fed to chameleons immediately after ingestion it is not gutloading in its literal sense of feeding off undigested food. And since the recommended interval between feeding crickets before feeding chameleons in our resources section is longer than that 3-5 hours then digestion is guaranteed to have occurred. Therefore, functionally, gutloading = high quality feeding. I have literally never seen gutloading defined as only feeding undigested food stored in the gut. Have other people found that somewhere? Maybe it’s not a perfect term but it is an industry accepted term and we are not influential enough to suddenly go and change a term used in herpteculture, aviculture, etc just because it sounds better than if someone takes it for its base literal meaning with no further qualifiers. It just seems to me like a solution looking for a problem rather than the other way around.

Source: Comparative Total Activities of Digestive Enzymes in Different Gut Regions of the House Cricket, Acheta domesticus L. (Orthoptera: Gryllidae) https://stud.epsilon.slu.se/13415/1/thorsson_elina_180123.pdf

 

[jamest0o0]

Well this thread went down hill.

when I first started researching chameleons and “gutloading” insects my understanding was that you feed the bugs whatever (but still good food) but then 24 hrs before feeding them to your chameleon you feed them a “gutload” so they would have that food conating the nutrients in their gut (as the word suggests) to pass onto the chameleon.

people used to recommend having 2 bins. 1 with the main bug colony and 1 with bugs that you gutload before feeding off. I used to do this but now I just feed them good food all the time.

I actually agree with @PetNcs here that the term “gutloading” is misleading and suggest that that you are trying to pass on the stomach contents.

Regarding the 2 bin thing, I do this and have recommended, but actually not with the purpose of gutloading so much as raising them on the best foods I had with 24/7 access. My main colonies eat pretty well too(one day I'll make a video of feeding all the colonies lol), but I have so many, I couldn't afford to feed them all bee pollen, spirulina, etc every single day. My 1 hisser bin alone can eat a couple pounds of oats/seeds and a bundle of bananas... almost overnight! Lol, so I separate some to hone in the larger variety of more exotic/expensive foods.

 

[jackthejellydragon]

So I know we are supposed to be making are chameleons life the wild but why can’t we make it better. Veiled chameleons or Yemen chameleons live in dry climates that aren’t great for growing fruits or veggies like strawberries ,blueberries, bok Choy, and other dark leafy greens. so the bugs drink nectar,eat pollen, and grasses of sorts, and leaves. So what is the things we feed are better than what they eat in the wild. I just feel like we don’t need to make it as much like the wild if we can make it better.

 

[jamest0o0]

So I know we are supposed to be making are chameleons life the wild but why can’t we make it better. Veiled chameleons or Yemen chameleons live in dry climates that aren’t great for growing fruits or veggies like strawberries ,blueberries, bok Choy, and other dark leafy greens. so the bugs drink nectar,eat pollen, and grasses of sorts, and leaves. So what is the things we feed are better than what they eat in the wild. I just feel like we don’t need to make it as much like the wild if we can make it better.

This is what I always took away, our grocery store foods are more nutrient packed. Many animals seem to benefit from eating things that are outside of their natural habitats.

 

[jackthejellydragon]

This is what I always took away, our grocery store foods are more nutrient packed. Many animals seem to benefit from eating things that are outside of their natural habitats.

Exactly

 

[Mrjamwin]

What did I miss?

 

[jackthejellydragon]

What did I miss?

A lot

 

[PetNcs]

So I know we are supposed to be making are chameleons life the wild but why can’t we make it better. Veiled chameleons or Yemen chameleons live in dry climates that aren’t great for growing fruits or veggies like strawberries ,blueberries, bok Choy, and other dark leafy greens. so the bugs drink nectar,eat pollen, and grasses of sorts, and leaves. So what is the things we feed are better than what they eat in the wild. I just feel like we don’t need to make it as much like the wild if we can make it better.

1. Yemen chameleons definitely do NOT libe in dry climates. The yearly precipitation is over 2000mm There, so it easily qualifies to fit the tropical humid climate rate, just influenced heavily by the very high altitude they inhabit (around 7000ft high)

2. it is very questionable whether what you call “better food” is really better. There is a nation that buy the food in the same groceries as most of the members of CF buy for their chameleons and the nation is well known for decades to have the highest adult obesity rate in the entire world. Guess what nation is it? Is “netter food” really better? I dare to doubt it.

 

[Beman]

2. it is very questionable whether what you call “better food” is really better. There is a nation that buy the food in the same groceries as most of the members of CF buy for their chameleons and the nation is well known for decades to have the highest adult obesity rate in the entire world. Guess what nation is it? Is “netter food” really better? I dare to doubt it.

How does comparing the obesity issue of Americans that live off fast food even remotely compare with those of us that buy all organic fruit and veg for our gutload? McDonalds is by no means my local Natural foods store. I don't even understand how you can compare what your trying to compare.

 

[PetNcs]

My goal was not to have people side with me, although I appreciate the support. My goal was simply to engage in conversation about a topic that interests me and that was lacking any scientific evidence in the discussion. Gutloading is the approved term through multiple peer reviewed sources over the last few decades. It doesn’t mean to literally load the guts with undigested food. It just doesn’t. And if we look at the digestive transit times in Acheta domesticus (house cricket) most of digestion occurs in the foregut (crickets have an alimentary canal technically rather than intestines but whatever) within 3-5 hours of ingestion. so by definition, as long as feeders are not fed to chameleons immediately after ingestion it is not gutloading in its literal sense of feeding off undigested food. And since the recommended interval between feeding crickets before feeding chameleons in our resources section is longer than that 3-5 hours then digestion is guaranteed to have occurred. Therefore, functionally, gutloading = high quality feeding. I have literally never seen gutloading defined as only feeding undigested food stored in the gut. Have other people found that somewhere? Maybe it’s not a perfect term but it is an industry accepted term and we are not influential enough to suddenly go and change a term used in herpteculture, aviculture, etc just because it sounds better than if someone takes it for its base literal meaning with no further qualifiers. It just seems to me like a solution looking for a problem rather than the other way around.

Source: Comparative Total Activities of Digestive Enzymes in Different Gut Regions of the House Cricket, Acheta domesticus L. (Orthoptera: Gryllidae) https://stud.epsilon.slu.se/13415/1/thorsson_elina_180123.pdf

You have not made any single attempt to address the main focus of my post
Regardless Whether It is called gutloading correct or incorrect way
Does it
Make sense to force chameleons to ingest undigestable food items? Because many people regardless of your manipulative defence of a stulid term that hasnin your opinion a completely meaning than whag is saus, DO
COMSIDER GUTLOADING a process of feeding animals WITH THINGS JUST PRIOR TO FEEDING THEM IMMEDIATELY TO CHAMELEONS.

Yhis
And nothing else I addressed in my original
Post
And I explicitely defined the term
I use, so that it is clear what I mean.
You aways choose to ridicule me instead tk try to understand what I mean.

And K insist that it IS meaningless and Potentially harmful.

And ai insist that feeding oranges and almonds is potentially harmful and therefore wrong to recommend, which yiu DO.

 

[jamest0o0]

1. Yemen chameleons definitely do NOT libe in dry climates. The yearly precipitation is over 2000mm There, so it easily qualifies to fit the tropical humid climate rate, just influenced heavily by the very high altitude they inhabit (around 7000ft high)

2. it is very questionable whether what you call “better food” is really better. There is a nation that buy the food in the same groceries as most of the members of CF buy for their chameleons and the nation is well known for decades to have the highest adult obesity rate in the entire world. Guess what nation is it? Is “netter food” really better? I dare to doubt it.

That's a bad argument, americans go to excess yes, but those that are obese aren't eating home cooked, nutritious meals from trader Joe's, whole foods, (insert grocery store here)... @Beman beat me to it. Another thing you'll notice about americans, they're either in really good shape, or really bad shape. Many of the world's best athletes come from here. We have plenty of access to the best food, our obesity issues have nothing to do with that

 

[JoXie411]

Dam who needs to watch the view when you can just read the CF

 

[Highway61]

2. it is very questionable whether what you call “better food” is really better. There is a nation that buy the food in the same groceries as most of the members of CF buy for their chameleons and the nation is well known for decades to have the highest adult obesity rate in the entire world. Guess what nation is it? Is “netter food” really better? I dare to doubt it.

This is hilarious coming from the robust gentlemen in the videos. Petr, would you say the food you yourself consumes is "better food"?

 

[jackthejellydragon]

1. Yemen chameleons definitely do NOT libe in dry climates. The yearly precipitation is over 2000mm There, so it easily qualifies to fit the tropical humid climate rate, just influenced heavily by the very high altitude they inhabit (around 7000ft high)

2. it is very questionable whether what you call “better food” is really better. There is a nation that buy the food in the same groceries as most of the members of CF buy for their chameleons and the nation is well known for decades to have the highest adult obesity rate in the entire world. Guess what nation is it? Is “netter food” really better? I dare to doubt it.

I meant more dry than Madagascar and I don't buy what chameleon McDonalds is I buy what chameleon organic whole food is just because I live in the us I don't have to be obese nor does my chameleon. people that are fat eat bad food and don't exercise Im 11 and play tackle football but I'm 5 foot 2 113 pounds not fat.

 

[Lennoncham]

have literally never seen gutloading defined as only feeding undigested food stored in the gut. Have other people found that somewhere?

Well to play devils advocate. (I’m not saying these are right)


“Gut-loading is simply force feeding the insects a diet packed with calcium and nutrients to temporarily fill their gastrointestinal tract. Once engorged with the beneficial mixture, those insects are fed to the reptile.”

https://timberlinefresh.com/blog/un...y-it-may-be-necessary-its-risks-and-pitfalls/

“Gut loading is also very easy: simply provide your feeder insects with nutritious feed at least a few hours before offering them to your lizards!”

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2019/07/increasing-feeder-bug-nutrition-gut-loading/

“The nutrients given the insect are meant to nourish the insectivore, not the insect. The purpose of gut loading is to get (often plant-based) food and its nutrients into an (often carnivorous) animal to satisfy that animal’s nutritional needs.”

“Traditionally, “gut loading” means feeding an insect a lot of stuff that is good for the insectivore shortly before they are fed off. The implication here is that the food in the insect’s belly (the gutload) ends up in the belly of the insectivore largely undigested.”


“This is how it works in the wild. Insects eat plants, then insectivores eat the insects that ate the plants. These insects often have undigested plant matter in their guts, and this is how nutrition passes from insect to insectivore. This is gut loading. This is what we want to imitate in captivity.”


https://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/gut-loading-dubia-roaches

“As the words suggest, gut loading is about filling the insect's gut with healthy nutritious foods.”

https://www.wikihow.com/Gut-Load-Locusts-and-Crickets



“Gut-loading literally translates to loading the intestines with a highly nutritious food.”

“Gut-loading is done by feeding insects a high quality, highly palatable and nutritious diet within a short period before feeding them“


https://beardeddragoncare.info/supplementation-through-gut-loading/



'gut loading' is (or was) 'feeding something special to a feeder animal immediately before using that animal as a feeder so that the predator is supplemented by the stomach contents of the prey animal'.

https://www.dendroboard.com/threads/gut-loading-fruit-flies.348906/

 

[kinyonga]

“The nutrients given the insect are meant to nourish the insectivore, not the insect. The purpose of gut loading is to get (often plant-based) food and its nutrients into an (often carnivorous) animal to satisfy that animal’s nutritional needs.”.....
"This is how it works in the wild. Insects eat plants, then insectivores eat the insects that ate the plants. These insects often have undigested plant matter in their guts, and this is how nutrition passes from insect to insectivore. This is gut loading. This is what we want to imitate in captivity.”...

Don't the nutrients have to be able to be digested by the chameleon or they will do it no good nutritionally?

 

[Lennoncham]

“The nutrients given the insect are meant to nourish the insectivore, not the insect. The purpose of gut loading is to get (often plant-based) food and its nutrients into an (often carnivorous) animal to satisfy that animal’s nutritional needs.”.....
"This is how it works in the wild. Insects eat plants, then insectivores eat the insects that ate the plants. These insects often have undigested plant matter in their guts, and this is how nutrition passes from insect to insectivore. This is gut loading. This is what we want to imitate in captivity.”...

Don't the nutrients have to be able to be digested by the chameleon or they will do it no good nutritionally?

i would think so. That’s why I said that I’m not saying these are right. But to a newbie reading that you wouldnt Really know.

 

[JoXie411]

Ok ok I’ll go away now I just couldn’t help it