Handling help!

[Bristoladrianna]

Hey there everyone, just joined this site this week! I recently procured a colorful little fella and I wanted to reach out to those more experienced than I for some advice. This is a long post but I just want to make sure I get all of our history thus far on the table!

So I got the little dude about a month ago, and he was 4.5 months old at that point. I ordered him overnight express shipped to me in Gainesville FL from Chameleon Paradise in CA. As soon as he arrived he was ready to get out of that plastic container, and was stirring around and turned pale (which Ive read means that they're agitated, understandably so) and since I already had his cage set up I opened the lid to the container and let him climb right into the cage. (Thought that maybe I should handle him some for familiarization but knew he had just spent the night in a small box and figured it was wiser to just let him get out and stretch in his own space) I got him some crickets (who an hour before I had fed some mango) and he chilled out cruising around his cage getting to know his sweet new digs.

I spray him down with warm water daily, feed him around 9am with crickets and have several calcium powders that I schedule throughout the week/month directly from Bruce at Chameleon Paradise. About two weeks after he arrived I had to make a long long drive a few states away and read extensively on how you should transport a chameleon. Went to the local petsmart and got a smaller sized plastic reptile enclosure, and got him some branches to hold onto and lined the bottom with a hand towel just in case he fell off one of the branches. While in transit I covered the cage with a dark blanket (making sure he had some kind of ventilation to breathe) also taking along his entire cage, dripper, and lights (UVB and a ceramic heat emitter for night time) and also more live crickets. To get him in this smaller plastic cage I tricked him into climbing onto a dowel rod (this is key*) pulled it out of his big cage and guided it over to the smaller cage and we were set, only he did not like the small cage! He tried to climb out of it as soon as I stuck him on one of the branches, but as soon as we got out to the car, with the blanket over the cage he went to sleep.

We made the journey there and thankfully I made the decision to bring his big cage and entire set up, because I would have felt so bad keeping him in the smaller cage for a week. When it came time to head home I tricked him again to grab onto this dowel rod and stuck him back in the small cage (all this dowel rod foolery hes starting to catch onto). We returned home from our week long journey and I set his big cage back in its spot, got his big lights plugged in and went I went to get him out of the little cage I used this easy accessibility to spend some time handling him, only when he crawled out onto the go to dowel rod, he started up my arm, and not really wanting him crawling up my face I tried to Steve Irwin handle him, hand over hand, so he was able to keep on walking but always staying in my hands. So attempting this technique he wouldn't walk into my outstretched hand, so I laid my hand flat over the crease of my elbow and when he walked up to that point of my arm, I would pick up my hand and he would start his walking journey again up my other arm. Which went on for a minute or so until I laid my hand on the arm he was walking on and he saw it, and tried to puff up, opened his mouth and simultaneously hissed at me. I thought alright Ill leave you alone (not wanting to force him to the point of biting me and perhaps breaking all the trust we had thus far) so I stuck him back in his big cage and everything returned to normal.

I kept reading online that in order for Chameleons to become more friendly handling them while young is key. So I tried that next week to dowel rod him out of his big cage once more, only this time he got wise to the plan. I would place this dowel rod under his head, for him to reach out his little arms to grab onto, and he would slowly grab on with his front legs, then step over it (dowel rod under his belly at this point) and back down onto the first branch he was perched on! Effectively laughing at me, and walking over my attempt to get him out of his cage. So I didnt press the matter, wanting to build trust and not make him hate this dowel rod technique I backed off... a couple days later after much thought I knew I had to get him out of that cage as peacefully as possible or he would never get used to me. So the idea occurred to me that I should tempt him with food! duh! So I took some silk worms I had bought from coastal silkworms in Jacksonville FL and stuck a couple on our good friend the dowel rod, and got him on it, and once he was completely on the stick pulled it out (much to his displeasure as he tried reaching out to the fixed branches in his cage to avade capture) so I took him to my living room and carefully sat down on the couch. He crawled up my arm, then onto my back where he paused to think over his next move, he then went up the back of the couch, and crawled down to the far end of the couch and hid there behind one of the cushions, with literally only the edge of his face, and eye visible, watching me. So we sat there for a couple hours, before I finally went over to him, dowel rod in hand and got him on it, then took him back to his cage.

Last week I wanted to get him out again to get him used to being out of his cage more. So I went for the dowel rod method, and stuck a few silk worms on it. But he knew what was up, and wouldnt even try for them while I was so close to his cage. So I left the dowel rod across some of the branches and backed off and went and sat down and waited, once he was completely on the dowel rod and going for the silk worms I walked back over, picked it up and drew him out of the cage. Again he tried grasping for other branches to get back into the cage. So I took him over to my bed and sat down with him. He crawled around on my arms but was on high alert, always staying on the far side of my arms away from my vision, and never taking his eyes off me, not even to look around at his surroundings, as if at any moment I would hurt him. I took him to my desk and he went for the cord to the binds and climbed up it just hanging there a while. I finally went to get him down to handle him some more and wanted to see if I gave him some more silk worms he would associate food with me. Placed a couple silk worms on trusty dowel rod and he wouldnt touch them, wouldnt even look at them he was so worried about watching me. So finally I just let him go back in his cage. But I started leaving the cage door open during the day since he has started to associate me opening that door with getting captured, to try and desensitize him from the opening and closing of the door.

Yesterday he was at the bottom of his cage where few branches are, so I used this opportunity to use the dowel rod and get him out, not having many options at the bottom of the cage for branches he grabbed right on to the dowel rod. Took him out, and let him perch up high on the blinds again, then when I went to leave the house, got him down with the dowel rod technique and some definite encouragement, and stuck him back in the cage.

Now today, I go to try to dowel rod him out (since my hand has previously made him hiss the dowel rod if it hasnt been obvious is the tool of choice) and he avoids the dowel rod like its the plague, crawling anywhere and everywhere behind branches to avoid being caught, to the point that I give up because I dont want to traumatize him, and because Im not sure what else I can do.

Im worried that since I got him when he was already 4.5 months old that hes past the stages of building trust with anyone, or perhaps since so early in our time together sticking him in that smaller cage and transporting him hes already afraid that being taken out of his cage, or the dowel rod means getting stuck in a smaller cage?

So I ask you my fellow Chameleon folk, what CAN I do? Advice? Suggestions? Anything is greatly appreciated! Thanks! -Bristol

 

[Decadancin]

You can always try hand feeding as a way of associating your hand with a positive experience. You may even want to use the end of the dowel as a way to feed but it may take some patience. We think of it as "trust" but in reality it is non-stressed or non-threatened.

 

[jpowell86]

This is my thoughts on handling:

I handle my chameleons when it is time to clean their enclosures, take their weight, examination and administering medication(if needed..God forbid).
Chameleons don't like to be handled for the sake of being handled. What people feel is excitement is nothing more than your hand being a mental trigger for dinner time or if you have your chameleon on a routine for free range time, outside time, etc. They can understand that your hand = something they want.

They in no way want to be handled otherwise. It is not enjoyable to them. Toleration is too often misconstrued as pleasure. I have kept chameleons for over 17 years now and I can with 100% certainty tell you that the chameleons that are handled less are much happier than the chameleons that are constantly pulled from their enclosures for our enjoyment.

Don't get me wrong, handling doesn't equal death or anything sinister.....but being logical and understanding that an animal highly adapted for mimicry and concealment not wanting to be out in the open and exposed just makes sense.

That being said, I do work with my chameleons getting them to use my hand as a secure platform. This is to avoid leaps and drops off the hand while moving them. I accomplish this by holding a feeder in my right hand that is too far away for the chameleon to reach on it's own. Then I offer my left hand as a platform to be able to reach the feeder. Once they use my hand in this manner, I immediately put them back in the enclosure. This over time makes it very easy to move my chameleons when I need to and keeps them very calm.


Being in your care for a month is not long enough to establish the kind of behavior you are wanting. It takes a long time for a chameleon to accept you as something that is not trying to harm it.

We think of it as "trust" but in reality it is non-stressed or non-threatened.

Decadancin made a great point. It is not "trust" that you are seeking...because that will never happen. Getting the chameleon to remain as calm as possible is the key.

But, do not be discouraged. Your chameleon is at the age where territorial behavior starts kicking in and he is still feeling vulnerable. This combination warrants distressed behavior.

I think the problem is that people see photos or actual people handling their chameleons and assume that their chameleon will be the same. All chameleons have different personalities and require an approach that suits their individual needs.

I have many chameleons and all have responded well to the method I stated above. But, for example, I have one Nosy Faly that wants to rip my jugular out just for looking at him or coming into the room if I don't have food in hand. I don't try to push him into being handled. It's not worth it. It stresses him and it's pointless.

Plus, too, when keepers consistently force these sessions, it just makes their chameleons less "trusting".

So, with all that being said...just be patient. That is the key with chameleons.

 

[Leo Chance]

Take time, if your chameleon wants out of the cage let him come on to you. Don't try to hurry him. At about 6 months our female Ambilobe decided that she wanted out of the cage when I was cleaning. She started climbing on to my arm. I took her into a plant room and let investigate the area. Now she goes to the greenhouse with me every morning, where she climbs to the same place and basks for about an hour while I do what needs to be done there. She starts scratching at the screen on her door as soon as she sees me. But it was her decision, not mine that she comes to me.

 

[Decadancin]

I have kept chameleons for over 17 years now and I can with 100% certainty tell you that the chameleons that are handled less are much happier than the chameleons that are constantly pulled from their enclosures for our enjoyment.

I have seen chameleons that are handled and it definitely is not an uncomfortable situation. I believe that they even "crave" the interaction for one reason or another. We do tend to humanize these reactions, but in my opinion this can lead to even more special care from us. I don't want people to think that chameleons "love" us, but having seen @jannb 's chameleons interact with her first hand, I'm a true believer that under the right conditions chameleons do thrive and even behave differently than their instincts will commonly tell them. If there ever was a chameleon (and she has more than one) that "loves" their owner it's Jann's.

I really do agree with what you are saying, but as I like to say often...

There is no ONE true answer to the right way to keep chameleons in captivity, we just try to do our best, and always keep learning.

 

[jannb]

I have seen chameleons that are handled and it definitely is not an uncomfortable situation. I believe that they even "crave" the interaction for one reason or another. We do tend to humanize these reactions, but in my opinion this can lead to even more special care from us. I don't want people to think that chameleons "love" us, but having seen @jannb 's chameleons interact with her first hand, I'm a true believer that under the right conditions chameleons do thrive and even behave differently than their instincts will commonly tell them. If there ever was a chameleon (and she has more than one) that "loves" their owner it's Jann's.

I really do agree with what you are saying, but as I like to say often...

There is no ONE true answer to the right way to keep chameleons in captivity, we just try to do our best, and always keep learning.

Thank you Michael! I do have a very special relationship with my chameleons. I also don't believe chameleons would be happier caged but I do understand that it is the only way that some keepers can keep them safe especially if you have other pets and or small children.

 

[Decadancin]

Thank you Michael! I do have a very special relationship with my chameleons. I also don't believe chameleons would be happier caged but I do understand that it is the only way that some keepers can keep them safe especially if you have other pets and or small children.

Jann, I think a Tasmanian Devil would cuddle up to you if you free-ranged it .

 

[jpowell86]

There is no ONE true answer to the right way to keep chameleons in captivity, we just try to do our best, and always keep learning.

I completely agree with this.

Out of curiosity, not being ugly at all, what actions have you witnessed in regards to Jannb and her chameleons, that dictated "love"?

What people feel is excitement is nothing more than your hand being a mental trigger for dinner time or if you have your chameleon on a routine for free range time, outside time, etc. They can understand that your hand = something they want.

I mentioned this in my first post. For example...when I enter my reptile room, it starts a stir in my chameleons. Friends who come to watch my chameleons feed have made the statement that "they must love you" because of the way they were reacting to my presence. I have to explain that it is not an emotion driven towards me personally, but rather the fact that my presence equals food.

also don't believe chameleons would be happier caged

I should have re-worded this differently. I give my chameleons free range time as well. I guess what I should have said was constant handling v. constantly removing them from their cage. That was bad use of words on my part.

 

[Decadancin]

I should have re-worded this differently. I give my chameleons free range time as well. I guess what I should have said was constant handling v. constantly removing them from their cage. That was bad use of words on my part.

Out of curiosity, not being ugly at all, what actions have you witnessed in regards to Jannb and her chameleons, that dictated "love"?

I have seen vibrant energetic animals that appear to be part of the family. I know that sounds like humanizing things, but its the best way to describe it. I have seen Hendershot struggling with age but still moving around his environment, and deliberately go over to Jann to be held underneath her chin for an extended time. One could say this is for warmth from contact, but if you witness it first hand you would see no signs of stress and real desire for comfort or interaction. In fact, when you saw Red (Jann's dog) walking around the house and not one of the chameleons seemed to react at all, it was a sight to see. I think there are some great YouTube videos of her chameleons just spending time in their environment, and also interacting with the family. I have seen Tate do the same thing, but he did not want to be placed back on his free range. It seemed like he wanted to stay with her for whatever reason, but again, I don't want to humanize the action. This was all going on with a full house of chameleons and people, and there were no stressed displays or hiding chams. In fact, even her Cuban Night Anole was getting in on the action, but I do have to admit, she did not seem to be as "loving" as the chameleons. She seemed to act more like a toddler getting into everything.
I'm sure most of what I see as love is coming from Jann and Mike towards the animals, but they truly are loved. The amount of special care that each animal receives shows in the results. I don't want to say that there is no stress felt by the chams, I couldn't comment on that, but I know I did not see it in situations that would send my Zaphod running behind the nearest vine .

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have a lot of trouble when people ascribe feelings and emotions to an animal that doesn't show those feelings or emotions between members of its own species.

If you told me your dog loved you intensely, I can believe you. If you tell me your horse loves you, I can believe that too, since horses form long-term, intense friendships that last years even when they haven't seen their horse friend for years.

But a chameleon? They just don't make social relationships. If you raise a group of hatchlings together, they may tolerate each other but will respond defensively or aggressively when they get too close to each other. There is no nurturing behavior exhibited by the parents towards the young. You have a creature that demands distance between it's brothers and sisters, right out of the shell. If it can't form a relationship with its siblings, why would anyone think it can form an emotional attachment to a predator such as a human?

Can they learn that you give them things they want? Can you train them? Certainly, but don't mistake training and tolerance for an emotional connection to you.

A chameleon might very much look forward to climbing on its owner but its motives will not be because of an emotional attachment. They might desire the stimulation of being out of their cage. They might--they do!!!--associate a person with food. There is no training tools that have as much clout as food. Do not underestimate the power of food.

It does a terrible disservice to an animal when we cannot see the animal for what it is. We should respect it and admire it for what it is, not some fantasy. If we give it motives and feelings it doesn't have, we are very likely to treat it in a way that is not in the best interests of the animal's long-term welfare.

 

[jpowell86]

A chameleon might very much look forward to climbing on its owner but its motives will not be because of an emotional attachment. They might desire the stimulation of being out of their cage. They might--they do!!!--associate a person with food. There is no training tools that have as much clout as food. Do not underestimate the power of food

I couldn't agree more!

The majority of the Melleri I have came to me in such pathetic shape. I had one in particular that was in such rough shape that I had to force feed him for almost two weeks. He was so terribly weak and lethargic. But, by the time he started to gain a little energy..he would bum rush directly to my hands. He was so hungry and in need of nutrition that the danger I presented as being this huge being that he should fear was completely outweighed by his drive for food.

So, I completely agree with your statement, "Do not underestimate the power of food".

Good points Janet!

 

[JaxyGirl]

I don't agree that all Chamelions are not capable of becoming attached to their owners. I've witnessed a lot of unusual behaviors in lizards throughout my life. From my experience some lizards that definitely showed attachment to their human that didnt have anything to do with food. I had a Jacksons cham named Triton that was almost 8 when he died of old age. (Very healthy his whole life) He was free ranged most of his life and he definitely knew who I was and would love to come to me to be handled. He enjoyed being petted
and he would fall asleep on me all the time when I rubbed his head. Not because he was sick or it was past his bed time. Triton seemed to love the attention and most important he seemed to enjoy it from me. Was that a coincidence? I think not.
Another personal experience; I did an internship as zoo keeper and I took care of all the primates, birds and reptiles. I rehabilited a 6 foot Iguana (nose to tail) he was very emaciated and malnurished so I had to force feed him. He lived in a 10x10 foot walk in glass exhibit cage so zoo goers look at him. I named him Rex because he was Huge!! In the beginning he would attack me every time I entered his cage. He was mean as hell and he would bite hard. I got red, welts all over me from his whipping tail. And it hurt! Long story short he eventually got better. He became very affectionate towards me and was my gentile giant He recognized me and loved to be scratched and petted when I went into his cage whether I had food or not he would saunter up to me for his daily loving.
However, I was the only one that could go in his cage. Once he started feeling better he would attack anyone other then me that entered his cage. Other Zoo keepers were afraid of him.
How do you explain that iguanas affection towards me and his aggressive behavior towards others? I don't think it was just a figment of my imagination or my needing to give a wild animal human emotions. Some interactions with animals are just strange, unusual and can't be explained. But, I think that to say no chameleon is capable of forming an emotional attachment with its owner is an opinion that hasn't been proven one way or the other.
I don't think it's fair to say that all chameleons are incapable of bonding with their owners and it's just a Fantasy that we've made up In our heads to make us feel better by giving an animal human emotions. It is correct to say that they don't have the same emotions as humans but I do think they are capable of more then we know. All we can go by is the animals behavior and some people including myself have had experiences with their Chamelions where the animal seems to act affectionate towards their owner.
Here's an interesting true story, about the friendship about a man and his wild Crocodile. It was such a big deal that when the croc died the town had a huge funeral for it
How does one explaine why this giant croc didn't eat the man? Could a solitary animal, known to attack humans, have felt true affection with a man or just a coincidence? Food for thought?

 

[bryantt]

The process of gaining a chameleons trust isn't a fast one.

My veiled would hide just ar the sight of me. But now its a very different story!

I started by getting a chair and sitting at his vivarium with the doors open for at least 10-15 minutes before feeding. (for a few weeks)

Then would continue to sit at his viv but would introduce my hand into the vivarium at the same level as my Cham but the opposite side. (again few weeks)

Once I could see my cham was at ease with my hand being in his environment I would put my hand closer to him (in his path way) and spray the vivarium with warm water. This usually got my cham moving, naturally he'd try walk across his cage but my hand would be in his path which after a few hesitant attempts eventually hed walk over. * AT THIS POINT I DID NOT ATTEMPT TO HOLD HIM*

After a week or so of doing this very other day, eventually I would raise my hand once hed walked across it and then put him back almost instantaneously. Once I could tell he knew I was no threat I practiced the same method and took him out of his vivarium slowly building up the time I would hold him only being a few minutes or so...

To ensure being taken out of his viv seemed like a positive action, I brought him a safe plant/tree to perch on in my living facing the window so he could watch the world go by.

This seemed to do the trick as now hes incredibly tame, even waits at his doors to be taken out to roam.

Even now he's very friendly and would quite happily perch on my shoulder for a long period of time contently. But I usually only hold him to take him out of his viv and put him back!

Hope this helps it worked for me! sorry for the long winded message lol

 

[jajeanpierre]

I don't agree that all Chamelions are not capable of becoming attached to their owners. I've witnessed a lot of unusual behaviors in lizards throughout my life. From my experience some lizards that definitely showed attachment to their human that didnt have anything to do with food. I had a Jacksons cham named Triton that was almost 8 when he died of old age. (Very healthy his whole life) He was free ranged most of his life and he definitely knew who I was and would love to come to me to be handled. He enjoyed being petted
and he would fall asleep on me all the time when I rubbed his head. Not because he was sick or it was past his bed time. Triton seemed to love the attention and most important he seemed to enjoy it from me. Was that a coincidence? I think not.
Another personal experience; I did an internship as zoo keeper and I took care of all the primates, birds and reptiles. I rehabilited a 6 foot Iguana (nose to tail) he was very emaciated and malnurished so I had to force feed him. He lived in a 10x10 foot walk in glass exhibit cage so zoo goers look at him. I named him Rex because he was Huge!! In the beginning he would attack me every time I entered his cage. He was mean as hell and he would bite hard. I got red, welts all over me from his whipping tail. And it hurt! Long story short he eventually got better. He became very affectionate towards me and was my gentile giant He recognized me and loved to be scratched and petted when I went into his cage whether I had food or not he would saunter up to me for his daily loving.
However, I was the only one that could go in his cage. Once he started feeling better he would attack anyone other then me that entered his cage. Other Zoo keepers were afraid of him.
How do you explain that iguanas affection towards me and his aggressive behavior towards others? I don't think it was just a figment of my imagination or my needing to give a wild animal human emotions. Some interactions with animals are just strange, unusual and can't be explained. But, I think that to say no chameleon is capable of forming an emotional attachment with its owner is an opinion that hasn't been proven one way or the other.
I don't think it's fair to say that all chameleons are incapable of bonding with their owners and it's just a Fantasy that we've made up In our heads to make us feel better by giving an animal human emotions. It is correct to say that they don't have the same emotions as humans but I do think they are capable of more then we know. All we can go by is the animals behavior and some people including myself have had experiences with their Chamelions where the animal seems to act affectionate towards their owner.
Here's an interesting true story, about the friendship about a man and his wild Crocodile. It was such a big deal that when the croc died the town had a huge funeral for it
How does one explaine why this giant croc didn't eat the man? Could a solitary animal, known to attack humans, have felt true affection with a man or just a coincidence? Food for thought?

Both the species you have cited have some sort of social interaction with their own species. Chameleons do not have any social interactions except when breeding.

Read into the behavior of your particular chameleon what you want, but continuing to suggest that keepers can make a chameleon into a pet dog that likes to be handled is going to kill a lot of little chameleons bought by novices who can't see illness in a reptile if it hits them in the face.

Chronic stress kills chameleons by suppressing their immune system. Stress isn't a behavior, it is a physiological response. A stressed animal's response is not emotional it is a cascade of hormonal events you can not see. Stress can be caused by too hot or too cold an environment, or it can be from the stimulus of a perceived threat.

When you handle a chameleon that is fearful of you, you are handling a small animal that has very few defenses. It is prey and it is responding to you as if it is going to be eaten. When a chameleon puffs up and hisses, it is in mortal fear. Certainly, it can learn that after many near-death experiences that since it hasn't died yet, it might stand down, so to speak, more quickly. But, you are still stressing it. An animal takes hours to recover from a stressful event and even though they appear to be back to their normal state, their blood work shows otherwise. If you are going to stress your animal, at least own up to what you are doing to it and admit what you are causing it some harm but you are going to do it anyway.

A suppressed immune system allows pathogens to cause an illness that a healthy immune system would have fought off. In other words, a stressed animal is more likely to become ill and any illness it gets is more likely to be worse.

I think everyone can agree, chamemleons in captivity seem to die at alarming rates. Perhaps if more people treated chameleons like tropical fish--look but don't touch--we might find they were a lot hardier in captivity.

Continuing to promote people "taming" chameleons and trying to make them into little pet dogs only kills them and it isn't obvious the two things are connected. The animal never dies directly of stress, but it does die of some disease process.

The other issue is why are keepers trying to change the very nature of the animal? Why can't they be satisfied and enjoy the wonderful creature a chameleon is? Ego is involved and I think some people need to have a very hard look at their motives.

 

[jannb]

Chameleons are use to roaming free and not being cramped in a cage. Even chameleons in the wild are social especially to humans. In Madagascar and South Africa when my husband or I offered an extended hand most crawler right on. Some were even hanging out together in the same tree/bush. I have personally had chameleons that enjoyed each other's company. See Jr. and Hendershot's photo below. They were best buds.

I treat my chameleons with love and respect. They are loved very much and a very BIG part of our family. They enjoy doing allot of the same things that we do just like any other pet. They often travel with us especially to the vets and enjoy looking out the car window. Their vet is 5 hours away so we stay in a hotel one or two nights and they are perfect travelers. We even have certain restaurants that we go to with outside seating and the chameleons are always welcome. Once when it rained we were even invited inside the restaurant with the chameleons. Everybody doesn't feel the same way as jajeanpierre but I'm sure most want speak up and allot aren't active on the forums anymore because of the closed minded people here. I truly love the chameleons and have stuck around to help the animal and their keepers even thought I have been picked on here before especially in the past but now days allot more people are open to free range and handling and see just how beneficial it is to a chameleon.

 

[nrnbow24]

Building a chameleons trust is a very slow and patient process. I know Jann personally and her chameleons. While I agree not all chameleons will "love" you she has a special bond with hers that has me in awe. Her chameleons are kept ON, not in beautiful condo's of pothos with proper lighting and drippers as well as artificial trees with branches and vines throughout. They are the most beautiful vibrant chameleons I have ever seen and extremely happy. When Jann walks through the room they migrate to the front and want her to hold them. They are not looking for food, they immediately cuddle under chin. They truly adore her.
On another note, a friend of hers about 8 months ago had to rehome 2 very adult male panthers. Jann was kind enough to recommend that I take them. In came the most beautiful boys I have ever seen. One was very loving and the other a big bluff. Neither of these chams knew me but the affectionate one had no problem sitting on my hand although he was skeptical. The other puffed and opened his mouth. Within 2 weeks the affectionate one would pass over food in my hand just to crawl up my arm and under my chin. He would rather I hold him than eat. Unless its a horn worm, then he will eat as he's crawling up my arm. The other boy within 6 months time had become almost as squishy. He will give me chin from time to time but no open mouth, no hissing and comes right out to be held. My other male panther is the same. I have a veiled that is a love and hand fed within 2 hours of purchasing him 2 weeks ago. He is between 2 and 3 years old and wild caught. I have 2 other veilds who think humans are horrible. Some trust and show affection and others don't. They are all different. I have 13 chameleons and only 4 of them will come out to me. Some have no objection to being taken out and others would rather bury themselves than let a human see them. I am ok with whichever way they want to be. I can handle them all and do so when I clean cages. Some I handle every day, some once in a while. I also have a Cuban knight anole baby now (thanks to Jann piquing my interest in them), he's about 3 months old and hand fed within 24 hours of purchase. I can also rub his chin and back and hold for a few seconds. I've had him a week. You need to learn your animal and what it wants. Our job as a keeper is not to stress them but enjoy and take care of them.

 

[Decadancin]

Sorry Jann, I didn't mean to drag you into a debate, just trying to show that there is more than one absolute answer to every question. I'm not disagreeing with the other posters, only offering another possibility. I think its more than just food, but that has been a way to get a desired response quite often. I would even offer that when I am hand-feeding my chameleon there is also quite a bit of stress that is overcome by other "emotions" such as the instinct to hunt prey and survive. I will say that any chameleon in the wild has to deal with a ton more stress every day than at Jann's house .

 

[JaxyGirl]

Both the species you have cited have some sort of social interaction with their own species. Chameleons do not have any social interactions except when breeding.

Read into the behavior of your particular chameleon what you want, but continuing to suggest that keepers can make a chameleon into a pet dog that likes to be handled is going to kill a lot of little chameleons bought by novices who can't see illness in a reptile if it hits them in the face.

Chronic stress kills chameleons by suppressing their immune system. Stress isn't a behavior, it is a physiological response. A stressed animal's response is not emotional it is a cascade of hormonal events you can not see. Stress can be caused by too hot or too cold an environment, or it can be from the stimulus of a perceived threat.

When you handle a chameleon that is fearful of you, you are handling a small animal that has very few defenses. It is prey and it is responding to you as if it is going to be eaten. When a chameleon puffs up and hisses, it is in mortal fear. Certainly, it can learn that after many near-death experiences that since it hasn't died yet, it might stand down, so to speak, more quickly. But, you are still stressing it. An animal takes hours to recover from a stressful event and even though they appear to be back to their normal state, their blood work shows otherwise. If you are going to stress your animal, at least own up to what you are doing to it and admit what you are causing it some harm but you are going to do it anyway.

A suppressed immune system allows pathogens to cause an illness that a healthy immune system would have fought off. In other words, a stressed animal is more likely to become ill and any illness it gets is more likely to be worse.

I think everyone can agree, chamemleons in captivity seem to die at alarming rates. Perhaps if more people treated chameleons like tropical fish--look but don't touch--we might find they were a lot hardier in captivity.

Continuing to promote people "taming" chameleons and trying to make them into little pet dogs only kills them and it isn't obvious the two things are connected. The animal never dies directly of stress, but it does die of some disease process.

The other issue is why are keepers trying to change the very nature of the animal? Why can't they be satisfied and enjoy the wonderful creature a chameleon is? Ego is involved and I think some people need to have a very hard look at their motives.

I doubt that most people think that their Cham would ever act like a pet dog.

Honestly, most chameleons die at an alarming rate not due to handling but because of poor diet which leads to vitamin deficiencies which leads to a weekend immune system and disease. I think that most stress occurs in chameleons due to living in a cramped cage when an animal such as a Chamelion needs much more space then a 48" cage. They get bored, stressed and depressed as any wild animal does when living in a cage. It is proven that animals can develop psychological when kept in a small cage. Then add poor quality diets and feeders that are like little bacteria pills along with bacteria build up in the cage because the Chamelion poops in the cage and the feeders run around in it. Even when cup feeding there is always that one escapey. When free ranging there is no worrying about the animal deficating in his cages or running around in it.

You said "I think everyone can agree, chamemleons in captivity seem to die at alarming rates. Perhaps if more people treated chameleons like tropical fish--look but don't touch--we might find they were a lot hardier in captivity"

I have a female Oscar named Ghost which is a Tropical fish. She is 9 years old and is 15" long. Sorry to say that she is very social and smart. Loves attention and gets excited when she sees me. She plays with ping pong balls and will throw sand against the glass when she's hungry.
She also loves to be petted and can be pretty playful when my hands are in her 100 gal tank. She behaves like this because I gave her the opportunity to and didn't treat her as just a fish to look at in an aquarium.

You said "An animal takes hours to recover from a stressful event and even though they appear to be back to their normal state, their blood work shows otherwise"
I'd love to see examples of blood work

 

[JaxyGirl]

This a picture of my Nosy Be panthers Neo and Tabitha sleeping together. Tabitha was on Neo's free range. I left them together for a few hours and had every intention of moving her but when I walked into the room I was really surprised to see they them sleeping together!! So I let them stay that way for the night. Neo's free range is really large and both chams could have moved to any part of it to be alone but apparently they chose not to. How does one explained that?? Maybe they are more social then we think?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I doubt that most people think that their Cham would ever act like a pet dog.

Honestly, most chameleons die at an alarming rate not due to handling but because of poor diet which leads to vitamin deficiencies which leads to a weekend immune system and disease. I think that most stress occurs in chameleons due to living in a cramped cage when an animal such as a Chamelion needs much more space then a 48" cage. They get bored, stressed and depressed as any wild animal does when living in a cage. It is proven that animals can develop psychological when kept in a small cage. Then add poor quality diets and feeders that are like little bacteria pills along with bacteria build up in the cage because the Chamelion poops in the cage and the feeders run around in it. Even when cup feeding there is always that one escapey. When free ranging there is no worrying about the animal deficating in his cages or running around in it.

You said "I think everyone can agree, chamemleons in captivity seem to die at alarming rates. Perhaps if more people treated chameleons like tropical fish--look but don't touch--we might find they were a lot hardier in captivity"

I have a female Oscar named Ghost which is a Tropical fish. She is 9 years old and is 15" long. Sorry to say that she is very social and smart. Loves attention and gets excited when she sees me. She plays with ping pong balls and will throw sand against the glass when she's hungry.
She also loves to be petted and can be pretty playful when my hands are in her 100 gal tank. She behaves like this because I gave her the opportunity to and didn't treat her as just a fish to look at in an aquarium.

You said "An animal takes hours to recover from a stressful event and even though they appear to be back to their normal state, their blood work shows otherwise"
I'd love to see examples of blood work

I'm not going to do your research for you. You can google physiological stress response in animals and study it yourself. There are some interesting articles related to capture myopathy, the ultimate stress response. Read Mader's discussion of the stress of handling reptiles in his text. To get you started, here's a link:

http://www.jblearning.com/samples/0763740411/Ch 2_Seaward_Managing Stress_5e.pdf