Harder to care for panther morphs?

[jannb]

I find that veileds and panthers are pretty much the same. I keep veileds and my daughter keeps ambilobes and nosey be's. I end up keeping her panthers quite often and care for them in pretty much the exact same way as I do my veileds. About the only difference in the adults is I keep the panthers a tad cooler and the humidity a tad higher. I do however find the panther babies a bit harder to care for. They are smaller and seem more fragile than the veileds. All I really do different with the babies is pay closer attention to the panther babies than the veileds keeping a very close eye out for any signs of a problem such as closed eyes, not eating or pooping.

 

[eisentrauti]

what an interesting thread ! with real discussions !

 

[warpdrive]

what an interesting thread ! with real discussions !

I too am glad that it is turning out this way in the end.

Harry

 

[pssh]

Its more or less me thinking out loud. Trying to get some minds churning. It would be nice for others to share their opinions or ideas on what I have posted. Dont worry everyone, I can handle being told I am wrong

And its my bad, I shouldnt have brought up the other thread. I really do not want to get back into that

Well, I think it makes sense. However, how do we know that once the animals are produced as CB they still will respond to the 'wild' conditions? It would be interesting to look into. I mean, if they have never experienced such conditions, they may not be programed to 'need' them. Then again, they could also be programed to 'need' them for the best longevity. Someone should test it. I would, but I'm not cool enough to. I usually never finish what I start if it takes more than several months.

 

[Cainschams]

it's not that I'm going to tell you that you are wrong my friend, I would rather you learn that for yourself. it's just you are not looking at this scientificly (but as a hobbist) and basing your findings on things that are not truly relivent, even if you think it is.

There are quite a few discussions in this thread so I think it is important to clarify which ones we are talking about. I would really like to know what you think I am wrong about? Also my flaws in my previous post? As for looking up locale data, how more scientific can you get than that when trying to replicate natural conditions? How is the information I posted on locale data irrelevant? How can I be wrong when I clearly see that my animals do know what is going on outside and they act accordingly to what is going on outside? Unless I am hallucinating, and no I dont eat LSD anymore, I clearly see what my animals are doing. Many other keepers with many more years of experience also see these changes with the seasons.

now let me churn your brian for a moment...
what if I told you that I did not live in NYC but on the north pole with my chameleons not far from where Santa lives. are you saying that for the next two months my chameleons will NEVER wake up because they know when the sun comes up and when it goes down? and yes, some of my chameleons have or had full view of the windows and the darkness that is outside here on the north pole. (if that is not food for thought, I don't know what is.)

It is a good thought and obviously me or anyone else cannot answer that because no one lives there. I would be interested in how they would act in that type of situation. Do I think they would sleep all day, no. But that is at such an extreme we can only wonder how they would act. By the way. The north pole will be in Russia eventually. It moves about 40 miles a year

btw, I'm going to start video recording my chameleons sleeping with the sun up, and awake when the sun is down for the next few months...I'll post it here on the forum and discribe why they do such things to show that they truly don't act or behave the way we "think" we do.

Again, many very experienced keepers see the same things that I am talking about when it comes to the animals knowing what is going on outside and acting accordingly. There are countless threads in the fall/winter time asking why an animal is going to bed early, not eating as much, not moving as much etc. Its clear that they do behave the way we think they do to natural conditions outside.

Harry

I would love to know what your opinion is on what I am wrong about, what is irrelevant, what isnt scientific etc. As of now all you can do is say I am wrong without stating why. Its really getting irritating so if you cant back up your opinions then quit posting.

 

[mardithepanther]

anyway....im getting a G'Kar girl to go with my guy. I think they will make beautiful babies!!!

 

[pssh]

I see my guys sleeping with the sun. They wake up whenever I turn on the lamps, but will go to sleep several hours early if that is when the sun goes down. It doesn't matter if I'm blasting them with several lights including a 6500K bulb or two. Some will wake up very quickly while the lamps are still on though (compared to how deeply they sleep without the lamps on.

 

[Cainschams]

anyway....im getting a G'Kar girl to go with my guy. I think they will make beautiful babies!!!

Dont forget the 8 2oz bags of coffee!

 

[warpdrive]

anyway....im getting a G'Kar girl to go with my guy. I think they will make beautiful babies!!!

and you should for the reasons you listed. in fact, I would do the same if I was getting back into panthers.

Harry

 

[warpdrive]

I would love to know what your opinion is on what I am wrong about, what is irrelevant, what isnt scientific etc. As of now all you can do is say I am wrong without stating why. Its really getting irritating so if you cant back up your opinions then quit posting.

I said that I can't devote the time to post about 8 pages of information on the subjects you listed about.
what takes 5 mins to speak with you on the phone, would take 2 hours to post here on this forum.
I'm sorry this irritates you to no end my friend. yet lets also remember that I did offer to give you my phone number so we can speak on the things you said.

furter more, I also offered to spend money and time to post my findings that DON'T agree with what has been spoken to death on this forum. but not only that, I am willing to post proff of such finding on this forum that contadicts many if not all other on not just one Chameleon, but of ALL of my living Chameleons.

while I can state why some of the reasons that yours and many others chameleons show differently then mine can be listed here on this thread right now, it is not only totally off topic from what this thread was about but then why even view my findings in recorded video that will also show the time of recording and the behavior that includes feeding responces?

this hobby is still in it's infancy. to say otherwise is....well let's just say I would respectfully disagree. we as a whole still know far too little regardless of all the years of experiance that you and many others may have.

above all, I'm trying to respect the original thread starter in that I don't want to continue to thread jack his thread.

good day my fellow chameleon keeper and friend. I hope that you will take me up on my offer and PM me for my phone number.

Harry

 

[Ace]

Dont forget the 8 2oz bags of coffee!

LMAO!!!! jared keep it on the down low

 

[Cainschams]

I said that I can't devote the time to post about 8 pages of information on the subjects you listed about.
what takes 5 mins to speak with you on the phone, would take 2 hours to post here on this forum.
I'm sorry this irritates you to no end my friend. yet lets also remember that I did offer to give you my phone number so we can speak on the things you said.

furter more, I also offered to spend money and time to post my findings that DON'T agree with what has been spoken to death on this forum. but not only that, I am willing to post proff of such finding on this forum that contadicts many if not all other on not just one Chameleon, but of ALL of my living Chameleons.

while I can state why some of the reasons that yours and many others chameleons show differently then mine can be listed here on this thread right now, it is not only totally off topic from what this thread was about but then why even view my findings in recorded video that will also show the time of recording and the behavior that includes feeding responces?

this hobby is still in it's infancy. to say otherwise is....well let's just say I would respectfully disagree. we as a whole still know far too little regardless of all the years of experiance that you and many others may have.

above all, I'm trying to respect the original thread starter in that I don't want to continue to thread jack his thread.

good day my fellow chameleon keeper and friend. I hope that you will take me up on my offer and PM me for my phone number.

Harry

I highly doubt it will take that long or that many pages. We arent talking about a very complex subject here. If such information exists would it not be beneficial to the whole community to share it? I dont mind talking on the phone but I also think the discussion should be posted on the forums. Again, such information and debating would benefit the community.

By all means. Document your animals doing what contradicts all others observations on here. However, as you said, contradicts ALL OTHERS. If everyone else observes this type of behavior then how can one instance prove that everyone else is wrong when they see and speak of the same behavior?

while I can state why some of the reasons that yours and many others chameleons show differently then mine can be listed here on this thread right now

Please, do so. I think lots of us are waiting. Again, such information may prove to be beneficial or at least get some more thoughts going. I dont think it is off topic at all. The point of the thread was to ask what morphs are harder to take care of. I then stated why I think crossing the locales isnt a great idea because of being able to replicate natural conditions in such a locale. I even backed up this statement with facts from well known authors that proves not all locales live in the exact same conditions. Photo period is another factor which our thoughts are relevant to the locales not being exact in natural conditions. Our observations at our houses is definitely beneficial to this thread.

then why even view my findings in recorded video that will also show the time of recording and the behavior that includes feeding responces?

Because it will prove your point that your animals do not show what many other keepers animals do show. Although, the pigs that some of them are, I wouldnt doubt you could turn on a light at midnight, the animal wakes up and readily accepts a feeder from your hand.

There is still much to learn. That is why discussions like this greatly benefit in new ideas and spark up other questions.

I dont think we are hijacking with any of these ideas. I think they are all very relevant to deciding how to go about replicating natural conditions for these mixed locales. Whether or not they are adaptable and it wouldnt make a difference I have backed up my opinion with locale data that not all locales share the same natural conditions. What would be irrelevant is my saying that I think there are enough mixed locales produced from dishonest breeders, importers, accidents etc. If one wants to keep a mixed locale there are plenty out there for them from those situations so lets not purposely breed them. Thats pretty irrelevant

 

[warpdrive]

I highly doubt it will take that long or that many pages. We arent talking about a very complex subject here. If such information exists would it not be beneficial to the whole community to share it? I dont mind talking on the phone but I also think the discussion should be posted on the forums. Again, such information and debating would benefit the community.

ok, I'll bite. but once again, I don't have the time to go into great detail. while you might not think it would normally take that much time, it takes me far longer then most just to type the two sentances I just typed.

By all means. Document your animals doing what contradicts all others observations on here. However, as you said, contradicts ALL OTHERS. If everyone else observes this type of behavior then how can one instance prove that everyone else is wrong when they see and speak of the same behavior?

I'm not arguing what they are seeing. what I'm arguing is the reason behind it. you say your chameleons know when the sun come up, and when the sun goes down, regardless if they can see the sun or not. that is what I'm arguing. now if you were stating that your animals had a built in instint that made them understand when the sun came up or went down from the area that they orriginat from, it would be tremendusly hard to prove you wrong. ue to the fact that they might know such things but are still waiting for a bit more outside (outside meaning, visual or auditery) stimulus before they react to sleeping or awaking.

but that is not what you are stating. so when you say that you "know" what is going to happen in Florida when it comes to sleep or weather patterns. then you "MUST" know what is going to happen on the north pole. the rules have not changed just because "YOU" think that the example I gave is too extreem.
you are now replying in a way that is from emotion and not science. once again, the rules didn't change, just the location of the animal. so if you still can't grasp that, let's try this...
if the north pole is too extreem, then what about Alaska? once again, if not going from emotion but going from science, will you concide that the panther will be awake for about 12 hours, and be asleep for about 12 hours, regardless of the "true" sunrise or sunset outside, if we are talking about indoor pets with an artifitial environment?
if that is too extreem in your eyes, then what about Quobec? what about Maine? what about NYC? Kentucky? Texas? when does your emotional thoughts end and your scientific research begin? and have you done any research to disprove your thoughts? because I have for the past two years that run across 6 chameleons. 2 of wich could see the sun rise and sun set from indoors.

Please, do so. I think lots of us are waiting. Again, such information may prove to be beneficial or at least get some more thoughts going. I dont think it is off topic at all. The point of the thread was to ask what morphs are harder to take care of. I then stated why I think crossing the locales isnt a great idea because of being able to replicate natural conditions in such a locale. I even backed up this statement with facts from well known authors that proves not all locales live in the exact same conditions. Photo period is another factor which our thoughts are relevant to the locales not being exact in natural conditions. Our observations at our houses is definitely beneficial to this thread.

no, you showed just what emotional responces to the subject of caring for a panther from two diffent locals should be different but like Jannb states for panthers vs Veileds, the care is almost the same. we can always try to tweek it if we want to go to such extreems, but in the end, when it comes to just panthers, you still have to strive to give it at least the minamilest care that it requires or you will run into problems. (once again, I can go into great detail, but I just don't have the time)

Because it will prove your point that your animals do not show what many other keepers animals do show. Although, the pigs that some of them are, I wouldnt doubt you could turn on a light at midnight, the animal wakes up and readily accepts a feeder from your hand.

the above is a good example as to why even an 8 page reply will still not be enough detail for me to post. you clearly are too invested in your ideas of what should be and shouldn't that before learning just how I'm going to show you that you are wrong, you are all ready stating to nit pit it to death.

There is still much to learn. That is why discussions like this greatly benefit in new ideas and spark up other questions.

I agree, now pay me $20 an hour and I'll spend the time and discuss it publicly "on your" time. untill then, I have responcibilitys that I must take care of and have spent far too much of "my" time on this subject already.

I dont think we are hijacking with any of these ideas. I think they are all very relevant to deciding how to go about replicating natural conditions for these mixed locales. Whether or not they are adaptable and it wouldnt make a difference I have backed up my opinion with locale data that not all locales share the same natural conditions. What would be irrelevant is my saying that I think there are enough mixed locales produced from dishonest breeders, importers, accidents etc. If one wants to keep a mixed locale there are plenty out there for them from those situations so lets not purposely breed them. Thats pretty irrelevant

when you put it this way, I agree. we are not thread jacking. but to give it the simplest answer with the shortest reply, the answer in my book is no. it is not harder and in fact, I think we can all agree that I'm as dumb as a rock. yet my first chameleon was a 6 week old panther cross that lived without sickness for just shy of two years before he killed himself from a fall....the sick and crazy fool that he was.

Harry

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Its more than just a visual sense that causes the changes we see in our chams during seasonal changes. Its the combination of lowered humidity/lower temps = winter time in the brain of a cham. They are hardwired to acertain that particular enviromental cues tell them what season it is.
Ive kept chams off and on since the mid 90's and none of your observations have ever been observed in my collection. They all have a "sense" of when the seasons change. So just because you have this documented study of your group of 6 chams that doesnt mean that our observations aren't valid or correct.
As for crosses, in my opinion they are acceptable for the pet owner only, and only if they know they will never be interested in breeding. If they are made aware its are a cross before buying. But I dont think we should be actively breeding crosses. When it happens accidently thats something thats often beyond our control as breeders. (we are lied too all too frequently) But to breed crosses for profits sake, which is all too common. Is wrong and detrimental to the future of all "pure locales in the captive market". A breeder shouldnt be breeding crosses just to have avail stock for potential customers. After all its far easier to just mix locales and breed whatever male you have to whatever receptive female that you can find. Thats the type of backyard breeder that can negatively influence a bloodline.

 

[Cainschams]

ok, I'll bite. but once again, I don't have the time to go into great detail. while you might not think it would normally take that much time, it takes me far longer then most just to type the two sentances I just typed.



I'm not arguing what they are seeing. what I'm arguing is the reason behind it. you say your chameleons know when the sun come up, and when the sun goes down, regardless if they can see the sun or not. that is what I'm arguing. now if you were stating that your animals had a built in instint that made them understand when the sun came up or went down from the area that they orriginat from, it would be tremendusly hard to prove you wrong. ue to the fact that they might know such things but are still waiting for a bit more outside (outside meaning, visual or auditery) stimulus before they react to sleeping or awaking.

Thanks for clarifying your side of the discussion. Now we can get down to business (at least for this paragraph) and toss out some ideas. While I cannot ask my chameleons how they can tell when the sun is up and when it is down while having no access to seeing light, I can throw out some thoughts. I do change with the light cycles and do not wait until my animals are telling me I need to do so anymore. Just to clarify before that is twisted up, I have seen my animals bed down accordingly while not seeing any light.

Here are my thoughts. One is atmospheric pressure. Although the sun does not heat the earth uniformly and there are other factors for air pressure such as humidity, altitude, closer or further away to the poles etc. Atmospheric pressure shows a diurnal or semi-diurnal cycle caused by global atmospheric tides. These changes are the most basic in pressure due to the rise and fall of the sun. Animals, I am sure, can sense these changes much more than we can. Seasons change because of the revolution of the earth around the sun along with the tilt of the earths axis. So when the sun is out longer due to the season, the basic pressure change due to the rise and fall of the sun is different than when in winter and the sun is not out as long, for my area at least.

Luckily I am very into astronomy, how planets revolve around stars, the effects of revolutions, etc. or I might not have been able to give (what I feel) a good thought or answer to your question. Hopefully this is not too much of an emotional response for you

but that is not what you are stating. so when you say that you "know" what is going to happen in Florida when it comes to sleep or weather patterns. then you "MUST" know what is going to happen on the north pole. the rules have not changed just because "YOU" think that the example I gave is too extreem.

Now for the part that is irrelevant to the thread, my thoughts and posts, your putting words in my mouth and your being emotional and non scientific about it. I NEVER SAID I KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN FLORIDA! Quit twisting my words and putting words in my mouth, Harry. Yes, the north pole scenario is extreme because there is no one keeping chameleons with Chris Kringle.

you are now replying in a way that is from emotion and not science. once again, the rules didn't change, just the location of the animal. so if you still can't grasp that, let's try this...

I have based my thoughts and opinions on scientific facts again and again in this thread. You are the one that cant grasp that or just doesnt want to in order to argue with me. It feels that is all you want to do is argue no matter how off the wall you need to get just to argue.

if the north pole is too extreem, then what about Alaska? once again, if not going from emotion but going from science, will you concide that the panther will be awake for about 12 hours, and be asleep for about 12 hours, regardless of the "true" sunrise or sunset outside, if we are talking about indoor pets with an artifitial environment?
if that is too extreem in your eyes, then what about Quobec? what about Maine? what about NYC? Kentucky? Texas? when does your emotional thoughts end and your scientific research begin? and have you done any research to disprove your thoughts? because I have for the past two years that run across 6 chameleons. 2 of wich could see the sun rise and sun set from indoors.

No I will not coincide with that statement based on what I have observed with my animals. I cant answer what will happen in Alaska or any other state. All I can answer from is the locations I have lived (MD and WV) with my animals and the animals I have kept. It would be nice for some of the other members to reply to the thread but I have a feeling they do not want to get into an endless arguement with someone who will just twist their words, put words in their mouth and argue over the point of just arguing and not basing anything on scientific fact. Its really pointless and after this post I am done unless someone else comes on here with good ideas to discuss not just wanting to argue. The only emotional thoughts is me sitting here completely irritated from your BS. It would be nice if you could post stuff like your first paragraph. The rest of this post is full of nonsense, word twisting and retarded reasons to argue with me.

no, you showed just what emotional responces to the subject of caring for a panther from two diffent locals should be different but like Jannb states for panthers vs Veileds, the care is almost the same. we can always try to tweek it if we want to go to such extreems, but in the end, when it comes to just panthers, you still have to strive to give it at least the minamilest care that it requires or you will run into problems. (once again, I can go into great detail, but I just don't have the time)

How in the hell is this an emotional response?!?! Do I really need to post it again? Well, here you go.

It will go from locality, climate description, annual rainfall MM (in) and Number of dry seasons.

Ile Reunion, Tropical Seasonal, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 5 to 6 dry months.

Tamatave, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Ile Ste. Marie, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Maroantsetra, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Sambava, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Diego Suarez, Tropical Sesonal (dry), 1000MM (40 in) rainfall, 7 to 8 dry months.

Ambanja, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

Nosy Be, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

You said.
"but in the case with the difference in panther locals, such drastic differances in tempiture and lighting, as well as rain fall are almost exact.
all because they are all low land jungle chameleons. they just were seperated due to how the earth changed when Maddy broke apart from Africa.
so a sambava can be treated like a ambanja due to the altitude that it lives in is basicly the same, and the rainfall is more or less the same. and the temps and humidity is close enough to be almost the same."

My post proved yours to be wrong. Maybe you are bent out of shape because of that but I backed up my opinion with scientific facts. Maybe you have emotions and science mixed up?

What JannB posted is completely irrelevant to my thoughts and opinions. No offense to her post and it is relevant to the thread. But, she is stating the GENERAL CARE are nearly the same. This has nothing to do with what I am trying to discuss here. GENERAL CARE AND REPLICATING NATURAL CONDITIONS ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!! Personally I dont think general care is as beneficial to replicating natural conditions..

the above is a good example as to why even an 8 page reply will still not be enough detail for me to post. you clearly are too invested in your ideas of what should be and shouldn't that before learning just how I'm going to show you that you are wrong, you are all ready stating to nit pit it to death.

Im the one nit picking

I agree, now pay me $20 an hour and I'll spend the time and discuss it publicly "on your" time. untill then, I have responcibilitys that I must take care of and have spent far too much of "my" time on this subject already.

LOL!!! 20$ an hour? Nah, how about you discuss it for the fact of not embarrassing yourself? If you posted thoughts like your first paragraph and not multiple paragraphs of BS just for the sake of arguing and word twisting maybe you would have the time to discuss this in a reasonable fashion?

when you put it this way, I agree. we are not thread jacking. but to give it the simplest answer with the shortest reply, the answer in my book is no. it is not harder and in fact, I think we can all agree that I'm as dumb as a rock. yet my first chameleon was a 6 week old panther cross that lived without sickness for just shy of two years before he killed himself from a fall....the sick and crazy fool that he was.

I dont think you are as dumb as a rock. I do think you are trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I like you, Harry. I think you are a nice guy but this is getting old. For this reason I am done arguing. It will only turn out in irritated statements that will not be good for relationships between fellow keepers. I was sad to hear your first animals died. That is a complete bummer for anyone into these animals. Especially something as tragic as a fall resulting in a broken back.
Harry

If you or anyone want to discuss reasonable issues I am down with that but lets stop the word twisting and pointless arguments.

 

[pssh]

Its more than just a visual sense that causes the changes we see in our chams during seasonal changes. Its the combination of lowered humidity/lower temps = winter time in the brain of a cham. They are hardwired to acertain that particular enviromental cues tell them what season it is.
Ive kept chams off and on since the mid 90's and none of your observations have ever been observed in my collection. They all have a "sense" of when the seasons change. So just because you have this documented study of your group of 6 chams that doesnt mean that our observations aren't valid or correct.
As for crosses, in my opinion they are acceptable for the pet owner only, and only if they know they will never be interested in breeding. If they are made aware its are a cross before buying. But I dont think we should be actively breeding crosses. When it happens accidently thats something thats often beyond our control as breeders. (we are lied too all too frequently) But to breed crosses for profits sake, which is all too common. Is wrong and detrimental to the future of all "pure locales in the captive market". A breeder shouldnt be breeding crosses just to have avail stock for potential customers. After all its far easier to just mix locales and breed whatever male you have to whatever receptive female that you can find. Thats the type of backyard breeder that can negatively influence a bloodline.

I like this post. Although, I do feel crossing is okay in the aspect that the colors are very interesting and surprising. Like I stated previously, I think it should be done on a much smaller scale. Monitoring 4 animals is easier than 34. Who knows where one of those 34 will end up?

 

[Cainschams]

Its more than just a visual sense that causes the changes we see in our chams during seasonal changes. Its the combination of lowered humidity/lower temps = winter time in the brain of a cham. They are hardwired to acertain that particular enviromental cues tell them what season it is.
Ive kept chams off and on since the mid 90's and none of your observations have ever been observed in my collection. They all have a "sense" of when the seasons change. So just because you have this documented study of your group of 6 chams that doesnt mean that our observations aren't valid or correct.
As for crosses, in my opinion they are acceptable for the pet owner only, and only if they know they will never be interested in breeding. If they are made aware its are a cross before buying. But I dont think we should be actively breeding crosses. When it happens accidently thats something thats often beyond our control as breeders. (we are lied too all too frequently) But to breed crosses for profits sake, which is all too common. Is wrong and detrimental to the future of all "pure locales in the captive market". A breeder shouldnt be breeding crosses just to have avail stock for potential customers. After all its far easier to just mix locales and breed whatever male you have to whatever receptive female that you can find. Thats the type of backyard breeder that can negatively influence a bloodline.

I couldnt agree with you more! All points well said!

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I like this post. Although, I do feel crossing is okay in the aspect that the colors are very interesting and surprising. Like I stated previously, I think it should be done on a much smaller scale. Monitoring 4 animals is easier than 34. Who knows where one of those 34 will end up?

I agree I love looking at the colors that crosses produce. That aspect of cross breeding locales is limitless.

 

[Chris Anderson]

It seems that a recurring point of contention is the sale of locales or crosses with inaccurate locale designations and the results it can have for the buyer and any breeding efforts they may end up pursuing down the road. The concern over such instances is mostly from those with the desire to keep and/or breed pure locales. Obviously there are various scenarios that can lead to the sale of animals under an inaccurate locale designation and they can range from completely innocent mistakes to blatantly fraudulent misrepresentation. As mentioned, animals that are themselves a pure locale can be sold as a different locale than they are or crosses can be sold as a pure locale. This can be the result of active attempts to mislead buyers for the purpose of securing a sale, poor record keeping during breeding and rearing, import/export mixups, etc. In each of these cases the result may be the unintentional production of hybrid locale babies. Unfortunately in some instances, these unintentionally produced hybrids may then be sold as pure locales without the breeder themselves being aware of the mistake until later or result in diminished profits for the breeder's hard work and effort during the long rearing times required to confirm the purity of the offspring (not to mention the diminished value of all clutches produced in the time waiting for the first clutch to hatch and reach maturity).

Many find locale hybrids to be very pretty and are unconcerned with people keeping and breeding pure locales for the sake of maintaining pure locale lines in captivity. On the other hand, others are either not impressed with locale hybrids to start with and/or see the value of maintaining pure locale lines in captivity despite arguments from the aforementioned group that because the animals and their descendants will never be reintroduced to the wild, it doesn't matter. Despite these differing opinions, many who are for maintaining locale purity and promoting efforts to encourage the breeding of pure locales are often confounded by the fact that it is not the animal's fault it was hybridized yet the animal is not of the same value to their breeding efforts as a pure known locale would be. Because one can easily produce hybrid locales from two otherwise pure but different locale lines while you can never produce pure locales from hybrid animals, many of those who are for maintaining locale purity are quite adamant that efforts to maintain pure locales should be of utmost concern to breeders and that intentional hybridization should be kept to a minimum. In any event, locale hybrids can make excellent pet chameleons for those not interested in breeding and as long as those who intentionally produce and own hybrids are honest and careful about their records and information provided when selling, we should be able to keep known hybrids from unintentionally entering pure locale breeding efforts in most instances.

As for the natural conditions across the range of F. pardalis, as Jared has already outlined, there is actually quite a bit of variation. While this variation might not change a set of basic conditions these different locales will survive in captivity under due to the general abilities of this species to adapt and survive, some locales may be more or less adept at surviving in some of the more extreme sets of conditions and understanding the local environmental characteristics can only help make us better keepers. While our set of basic captive conditions may result in successful maintenance or even a couple generations of successful propagation, rarely have they resulted in successful long term, multigenerational efforts, a distinction many fail to recognize.

Now, turning to conflicting experiences regarding seasonal behavioral shifts, there are a number of natural patterns that are seen in virtually all chameleon species that naturally experience seasonal shifts in environmental conditions. These patterns tend to be more closely linked to temperature, rain patterns and humidity level changes than photoperiod but decreased activity and appetite are typical. Not seeing these seasonal changes in a small number of chameleons kept over a relatively short period does not mean they are not typical patterns, as is evident by the plethora of both captive and wild observations of these seasonal behavioral shifts. A lack of seasonal behavioral shifts may in fact simply indicate a lack of a sufficient shift in captive environmental conditions necessary to trigger them, i.e. poorly replicating natural conditions.

Finally, experience with six chameleons over a two year period and limited to no direct experience with the topics at hand hardly warrants a lot of the belligerence and badgering seen in this thread toward both keepers with similar, less and significantly more experience. Discounting countless captive and wild observations based on such a sample size and claiming everyone else is "unscientific" is similarly unwarranted, particularly when proof of such contradictions are claimed and offered yet in the same breath, posting of said proof is refused. In fact, there isn't much that is less scientific than that.

Chris

 

[TheHoff93]

Pssh, I got what you meant lol If someone has a cross that "magically" becomes a pure Ambilobe or whatnot as soon as they're selling it or it's offspring.

Don't be hatin' on the poor crosses! Can't there be a SINGLE thread about them that doesn't end up with some kind of negative comment against them?

HERE HERE! I love crosses. I disregard all the slander on them. I understand why people frown upon them when it comes to breeding. However, I think they look spectacular. Sometimes better than pure locales. It's just important to be truthful about what you have if you are trying to sell it. I plan on buying a Ambilobe x Ambanja morph for my first panther. I couldn't decide which locale I liked more so why not get a hybrid? It's the best of both worlds.