Help! Grip Weakness

G

ginny

New Member
Hi all!
I have a panther chameleon, male, 3 years old. He has been struggling with weakness of grip for some time. I took him to the vet who did blood work and said he was borderline calcium deficient. Started on calcium drops. Didn't get better. Took him to reptile vet who said he was not calcium deficient. Recommended I switch from cage to terrarium. I did this close to a year ago and I also have a UVB light/heat lamp combo, night heat light, mist couple times a day, drip water twice a day, and have switched his diet to silk worms, horn worms and phoenix worms. I gut load crickets on occasion, but try to stick with the better diet, and also powder his food with calcium and vitamins. Cage temp is 75-85 degrees. His appetite is great, but his grasp continues to weaken. He is friendly and active, but slips a lot and sometimes falls due to weak grasp. What else can I do?

Thanks so much for any input.
 
Post the bloodwork and a picture. How did the second vet determine that there was no calcium deficiency? Xrays may be useful to look at bones. Another possibility is gout which may be seen with xray.
 
He has no nail problems. Sounds like vitamin deficiency, so I will talk to vet about getting some vitamins. He also had some growths on his skin and is receiving injections of antibiotics avery three days for a month.

He eats well, and loves walking/climbing around. Not sure why there would be a vitamin deficit since he eats a varied diet and also gets food with vitamin powder about twice a week. I don't think it's gout as only the front legs are weak. It sounds like this is a somewhat common problem from other posts you all have forwarded me.

Not sure how to add a pic, but truly he looks good and is a good weight.

Thanks for the input. I will follow up with vet and see about a more aggressive vitamin regime.
 
What are you giving him in terms of supplementation? Weak grip is most often related to calcium deficiency. Vitamins twice a week is way too much, and I don't think that a vitamin deficiency would cause weakness of grip. He should be getting calcium powder without d3 every feeding, calcium with d3 once every two weeks, and a vitamin powder once every two weeks. Too much vitamin can be dangerous. It sounds like there are a few things that might be wrong with your husbandry, so could you please fill this out:

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
 
If he has skin growths and you switched him to a terrarium (glass), it sounds like he has either a fungal or bacterial issue. Combined with a possible Ca deficiency, he is in dire need of a herp vet who knows reptile specifics.
 
grip issue

3 yr old male panther, been in my care since he was 2 months old

He loves to come out daily. Wants to walk onto my hand. I let him walk around a bit, he has sticks he can climb up at the window to look outside. In summer, he goes out and climbs on tree and trellis. Limit out of cage time to 30 minutes.

He is eating silkworms, sometimes hornworms, some crickets, some super worms, and also butterworms. Phoenix worms when I can get them. Was eating well until recently.

I was supplementing by feeding the crickets "calciumplus" that I got from the vet. But since he doesn't eat crickets much any more, I also dust his worms about once a week with calcium (repti calcium from Zoo Med)and vitamins. But I have looked up the vitamin package, and apparently it isn't that great. No vitamin A. I have now ordered a vitamin A supplement through Ripashy.

He has dripping water (filtered) twice daily for 30 minutes. He doesn't drink daily, but when he does, he loves it, sitting under it and lapping away.

His poops are large, half dark and half light. He is eating less now and hasn't pooped in a couple of days.

At the advice of the Vet who everyone swears by here in Portland area (Dr. Burgess, who also consults with the Portland Zoo), I switched the cage from wire mesh to terrarium about 9 months ago. According to vet, just the enclosure itself would provide enough humidity. But I have recently noticed that when the heat lamp is on, the humidity plummets. Since it is summer, I am using the heat lamp only two 3 hour intervals a day.
The enclosure is large and tall, about 3 feet or more tall, with a screened top.

I have a heat lamp, from Zoo med, 100 watt. I have the UVB lights, two of them. One is 5.0 Reptisun, the other an 18 inch 25 UBV bulb "all things living" brand. The long one spans across the top front. The short one shares the top back along with the heat lamp, which I am now limiting. The UVB lights are one for about 14 hours a day.

The temp ranges from close to 85 on top when the heat lamp is on with lower temp in mid 70's towards bottom of cage. When heat is off, it's still in the mid 70's throughout. He likes being near the top, even with the higher temps, but tends not to "bask" under the heat lamp when it is on.
Because I like my house warm, there is no heat at night, but the temp is in low 70's.

Again, I suspect the humidity is the issue, which I am trying to resolve by limiting the heat lamp. Not sure how to address this when it is winter....

He has a live Sheffelera plant, it is large and takes up most of the cage. When I clean the cage, I rotate out and put a different Sheffelera in. The twice daily dripping water waters the plant and I drain out the basin beneath the plant when needed.

The cage sits in front of a window that gets some direct sunlight, but I close the shades when it is in the nineties so as not to overheat him.

I live in Vancouver, Washington.

The problem is progressing grip weakness. I think his tongue is now starting to be affected......
 
grip weakness

I should note that this issue started over a year and a half ago, which is when I took him to Dr. Burgess. At that time, Burgess did not think he had calcium issue as his jaw was strong. Also a blood test previous to that appointment at another vet showed no calcium deficiency.
 
If he has not had enough calcium in in his diet he could be developing MBD. They don't always have to have curvy limbs to be effected by it. That is when the cases get severe and the limbs start to bend. Feeding the crickets calcium may not have been enough. They should have been dusted from the beginning. Humidity is not going to play a role is his grip either. I am not going to comment on the vet advising you to switch habitats. I am not a vet, so will leave it at that! If he were older I would say he might be losing his grip to something like arthritis, but 3 yrs old is not that old really. Also, are you changing out UVB lighting on a regular basis??
 
3 yr old male panther, been in my care since he was 2 months old

He loves to come out daily. Wants to walk onto my hand. I let him walk around a bit, he has sticks he can climb up at the window to look outside. In summer, he goes out and climbs on tree and trellis. Limit out of cage time to 30 minutes.

He is eating silkworms, sometimes hornworms, some crickets, some super worms, and also butterworms. Phoenix worms when I can get them. Was eating well until recently.

I was supplementing by feeding the crickets "calciumplus" that I got from the vet. But since he doesn't eat crickets much any more, I also dust his worms about once a week with calcium (repti calcium from Zoo Med)and vitamins. But I have looked up the vitamin package, and apparently it isn't that great. No vitamin A. I have now ordered a vitamin A supplement through Ripashy.
The calciumplus diet isn't nearly enough. Not only do you need to gutload his feeders, he also needs powdered supplements. Dust his food daily with calcium that has no D3 in it. I use rep-cal. Once every two weeks, you will dust with a multivitamin. For that one, I use Reptolife. Also once every two weeks, you'll want to dust with calcium powder that DOES have D3 in it. I really think that the issue is a calcium deficiency. Grip weakness and tongue troubles are both symptoms, and are both early symptoms as well.
He has dripping water (filtered) twice daily for 30 minutes. He doesn't drink daily, but when he does, he loves it, sitting under it and lapping away.
leave the dripping water on all day, especially since it is getting hot out. He should have water available all day. Also, many people mist their chameleons as a way of watering them. They will lick water off of leaves and branches, which is what they do in the wild.

His poops are large, half dark and half light. He is eating less now and hasn't pooped in a couple of days. The light part should be stark white. If it's yellow or orange, it means he is dehydrated.

At the advice of the Vet who everyone swears by here in Portland area (Dr. Burgess, who also consults with the Portland Zoo), I switched the cage from wire mesh to terrarium about 9 months ago. According to vet, just the enclosure itself would provide enough humidity. But I have recently noticed that when the heat lamp is on, the humidity plummets. Since it is summer, I am using the heat lamp only two 3 hour intervals a day.
The enclosure is large and tall, about 3 feet or more tall, with a screened top.
Mesh is so much better in my opinion. Temperature control is easier, there's airflow which is very important. To resolve the humidity issue, you can use a smaller wattage heat bulb, 100 is probably too much, especially in a glass cage. He needs to have the temperature gradient all day so he can thermoregulate, and keep his body temperature the way he wants it. So his light needs to be on for 12 hours a day. You should also mist his enclose at least 2x a day. That will help with the humidity. They don't need constant high humidity. Usually what happens is when you mist, there will be spikes in the humidity, and it will slowly drop down throughout the day. There should always be time for the enclosure to dry out before you mist again.

I have a heat lamp, from Zoo med, 100 watt. I have the UVB lights, two of them. One is 5.0 Reptisun, the other an 18 inch 25 UBV bulb "all things living" brand. The long one spans across the top front. The short one shares the top back along with the heat lamp, which I am now limiting. The UVB lights are one for about 14 hours a day. Leave lights on for 12 hours a day. You only need the Reptisun 5.0, I haven't heard of the other one, but it isnt necessary. When's the last time you switched out the Reptisun? After six months, they stop giving off UVB even if the light still works, and UVB is very important for chameleons to be able to absorb/metabolize calcium. The heat lamp you have is probably too hot. You can use a smaller one. I use a 50 watt one in my screen cage.

The temp ranges from close to 85 on top when the heat lamp is on with lower temp in mid 70's towards bottom of cage. When heat is off, it's still in the mid 70's throughout. He likes being near the top, even with the higher temps, but tends not to "bask" under the heat lamp when it is on.
Because I like my house warm, there is no heat at night, but the temp is in low 70's.
You don't want the whole top of the cage to be 85, just the area under the basking lamp. The top area of the cage should be mid 70's and the bottom areas can drop to the high sixties/low seventies. He is probably too hot.

Again, I suspect the humidity is the issue, which I am trying to resolve by limiting the heat lamp. Not sure how to address this when it is winter....Humidity is not the issue, I am 99% sure of it. You dont need to limit the heat, just add in the misting a mentioned and lower the wattage of the bulb.

He has a live Sheffelera plant, it is large and takes up most of the cage. When I clean the cage, I rotate out and put a different Sheffelera in. The twice daily dripping water waters the plant and I drain out the basin beneath the plant when needed.

The cage sits in front of a window that gets some direct sunlight, but I close the shades when it is in the nineties so as not to overheat him.I would move it away from the window so that you can regulate the temperatures more easily and the sunlight isn't doing anything besides creating excess heat, since glass filters the UV rays out of the sun.

I live in Vancouver, Washington.

The problem is progressing grip weakness. I think his tongue is now starting to be affected...... I really think your chameleon is showing early signs of MBD, or a calcium deficiency. Fix his supplementation and the heating issues and I think you will see improvement fairly quickly.
 
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