Help help help!
- Thread starter DDHackett
- Start date
So far so good......
After calling every exotic vet in my area, and NOBODY was available until tonight and most were out until Friday....I found an AWESOME VET! 45 minutes from my house, but their specialty is avian and reptile care. I got her to drink water this morning and she opened her mouth to let me feed her a cricket. She chomped away, but did not even attempt to stick out her tongue. After getting her there today, she was a very pale color, but still plump and eyes still open. I was balling like a baby and the staff was great and so consoling and nice!
They took her back and immediately put her in an incubator. Doc took a look at her and said she was very healthy in size and weight. He said it does not appear that she has MBD at all. (It may have been the angle of the pic that was taken). He said she was having a calcium defficiency and the shaking and lethargicness was due to this. He is giving her 2 seperate injections of calcium and keeping her overnight. He is almost 100% that this is the problem and will call me in the morning. He will be sending me home with some calcium serum as well to put into her mouth, if she comes home.
He said worst case scenario, if she doesn't take to the calcium injections, he will be giving her a round of antibiotics and keeping her another day or so. Her joints are fine, intact, and showing no signs of MBD. I asked him how this happened all of a sudden and he said there can be several factors, but I got her to him in plenty of time to get her back up to par.
He also told me about an article he wrote based on a study of calcium in crickets and will be giving me that information tomorrow too. Apparently there is an organic pellet bird food that he gives to his crickets that is chocked full of calcium and Vitamin A. The levels of calcium were higher than any other food given to the crickets. No adverse side affects for the reptile and the crickets love it. He said dusting does absolutely nothing for the chameleon.
After calling every exotic vet in my area, and NOBODY was available until tonight and most were out until Friday....I found an AWESOME VET! 45 minutes from my house, but their specialty is avian and reptile care. I got her to drink water this morning and she opened her mouth to let me feed her a cricket. She chomped away, but did not even attempt to stick out her tongue. After getting her there today, she was a very pale color, but still plump and eyes still open. I was balling like a baby and the staff was great and so consoling and nice!
They took her back and immediately put her in an incubator. Doc took a look at her and said she was very healthy in size and weight. He said it does not appear that she has MBD at all. (It may have been the angle of the pic that was taken). He said she was having a calcium defficiency and the shaking and lethargicness was due to this. He is giving her 2 seperate injections of calcium and keeping her overnight. He is almost 100% that this is the problem and will call me in the morning. He will be sending me home with some calcium serum as well to put into her mouth, if she comes home.
He said worst case scenario, if she doesn't take to the calcium injections, he will be giving her a round of antibiotics and keeping her another day or so. Her joints are fine, intact, and showing no signs of MBD. I asked him how this happened all of a sudden and he said there can be several factors, but I got her to him in plenty of time to get her back up to par.
He also told me about an article he wrote based on a study of calcium in crickets and will be giving me that information tomorrow too. Apparently there is an organic pellet bird food that he gives to his crickets that is chocked full of calcium and Vitamin A. The levels of calcium were higher than any other food given to the crickets. No adverse side affects for the reptile and the crickets love it. He said dusting does absolutely nothing for the chameleon.
Elizadolots
New Member
I suspect there's going to be a lot of controversy regarding your vet's conclusions.
But, before that starts, I want to say I'm so glad you got her to a vet and that you see a path toward health for her.
Would you be able to share the article he wrote with us?
But, before that starts, I want to say I'm so glad you got her to a vet and that you see a path toward health for her.
Would you be able to share the article he wrote with us?
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
Uhh, so just how does this vet differentiate between MBD and a "calcium deficiency"???? The treatment for MBD IS to increase the amounts of calcium in the diet and to give supplemental injections...just what he is planning to do. This does not track at all.
Dusting does nothing for the cham??? I beg to differ! While a high quality, balanced gutload for feeders is most important, regular dusting is the micro-nutrient gap-filler. You also want to watch the level of Vit. A in any cham gutloads...it is fairly easy to overdose.
This problem didn't just appear overnight. She's been developing it for a while, but it became obvious once she was overwhelmed and could no longer hide the effects from you.
What are the antibiotics for? Does she have an active infection? What type? Where?
I'm not all that sure I agree with your vet at this point and I would never say that lightly. Either there is some sort of misunderstanding or misinterpretation between you about her problem, or your vet isn't up to date on reptile calcium/phosphorous metabolism and diet. There are several excellent gutloads available through forum members/sponsors and we also know from your descriptions that your feeders were not providing much nutrition for your cham prior to this. You are seeing the result now and it can be fixed. Her symptoms scream MBD to me, curved legs or not.
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He told me that she was having some calcium issues and for her to be showing signs all of a sudden, doesn't signify her having serious MBD. Maybe I misrepresented it, when I said she doesn't have MBD. I should have said "doesn't have serious MBD". He said her limbs are not swollen and they do not seem to have fractured at any point. Her jawline was in line and her neck isn't swollen which is also a good sign he said. He is almost certain that the injections will be sufficient and she will be on her way to full recovery. I'm just so happy she is going to be ok. 
If she doesn't take to the calcium injections, he feels she may have the onset of an infection and he will be giving her Baytril (injected and orally) to treat if need be.
I'm not saying he is right or wrong....I'm just passing the information along. I don't have the article in hand yet either, so I may have some sort of information crossed, but I do remember him saying dusting isn't sufficient. Which in part may mean, crickets that are dusted only and not gut loaded. Not clear until I have it in hand.
I have faith in this doctor or he wouldn't be an avian/reptile specialist. I am more than confident he knows what he is doing and is up to date on the diet requirements for reptiles. I'll update tomorrow when I get the phone call.
If she doesn't take to the calcium injections, he feels she may have the onset of an infection and he will be giving her Baytril (injected and orally) to treat if need be.
I'm not saying he is right or wrong....I'm just passing the information along. I don't have the article in hand yet either, so I may have some sort of information crossed, but I do remember him saying dusting isn't sufficient. Which in part may mean, crickets that are dusted only and not gut loaded. Not clear until I have it in hand.
I have faith in this doctor or he wouldn't be an avian/reptile specialist. I am more than confident he knows what he is doing and is up to date on the diet requirements for reptiles. I'll update tomorrow when I get the phone call.
Also....first thing tomorrow I am going to be getting a tube UVB lamp to span the top of her cage. Also plenty of things to gut load the crickets properly. I have been given so much information between here and some reptile pet stores that I obviously wasn't giving them the right gut load nutrition.
If I have learned one thing from this forum is to follow it regularly. Do what the experts say and don't listen to pet shops about gut loading and feeding. This is what has happened to my poor Keemosabee.
michaelhorning48
New Member
I just found out today that our veiled has mbd and is displaying some similar symptoms she may have the same condition the one pic looks like she has a dbl knee i may be mistaken good luck
Elizadolots
New Member
Good for you! Sometimes you have to be your pet's advocate when dealing with the vet.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a specific window during which oxytocin will help them pass eggs? If not given at the right stage it won't do anything.
Had some very very disheartening news today. X-ray shows no eggs, but shows enlarged kidneys. He is suspecting kidney cancer. He says she is too young to have a disease attacking her kidneys. I am taking her out tomorrow and taking her to a vet highly recommended who will do a blood panel and pinpoint her exact problem. This vet says he can't get blood, but the one I am taking her to knows where and can get it even if she is too small. If she is going to pass, I want to know what from and not just a guess. I will NOT put her to sleep until I know.
ChameleonMom
New Member
Sorry to hear this news, but it IS a good idea to get a second opinion...don't give up on her yet! IMHO, I am happy to hear you will go to another vet...I am thinking an accredited reptile vet should know how/where to draw blood, even from the smallest of creatures. A bit of a whackjob, if you ask me with some of the things you've shared with us. No offense, just my opinion.
Also, just had a thought. I know Baytril can affect the kidneys...if he's given her some injected Baytril before the x-rays (the day before?) perhaps this could be the cause of the enlargement? I have had a few of my chams on Baytril for various reasons and I know it can be hard on their kidneys and they must be hydrated regularly. I'm just wondering if the enlarged kidneys could be a false diagnosis due to the Baytril use? Anyone care to elaborate or confirm if this could be true?
Keeping my fingers crossed that a diagnosis AND a solution is found that can help your little girl on the road to recovery.
There was no better news given to me yesterday. She was in acute renal failure and her kidneys were so enlarged they were overlapping her pelvic bone. I could see them and feel them, which is not normal. Also her kidneys were severely malformed. She was being gavage fed, given fluids, and calcium; which none of this worked. She looked so helpless yesterday and I couldn't allow her to continue like that. I had them put her to sleep. It definitely was not an easy choice, but my husband and I feel like we made the right one. I can't keep letting her suffer for my own selfishness. I will heal and when I am ready to get a new one.....I found someone with a good reputable breeder and the chams have good genetics. So no suprise cancer....hopefully.
On another note, I will not be taking any of my chams back to that vet. I will travel 15 minutes more further to a VCA clinic that I have been recommended to.
On another note, I will not be taking any of my chams back to that vet. I will travel 15 minutes more further to a VCA clinic that I have been recommended to.
I'm so sorry to hear this. I think you made the right choice in this case since she was so sick and had been for some time. Chronic dehydration combined with metabolic bone disease can cause kidney disease and failure so on top of any genetic problems that's just disastrous. Chameleons are so fragile sometimes. I'm sorry again for your loss. Whenever it feels like it's time to get another chameleon please come back to the forums and let us know how we can help so your next experience can be a happy one.
Elizadolots
New Member
I'm very sorry for your loss.
