Help me determine if these are swollen ankles? Gout symptoms or normal behavior?

[Lt.WorfReportingForDuty]

I’ve been noticing for the past week or so, sometimes my 2yo male Panther, Worf, will “hang” one of his feet off of the branch when he’s basking and not use it until he moves. I took him out of his cage for an exam, and his grip strength is good on all feet, but he “favors” some when he’s resting in his cage. Attached are pictures of him “favoring” his front Right foot, and pictures of all four feet when I took him out.
Also, I did walk into my office once this week and see that he had his eyes closed and he quickly opened them and gave me the evil eye, which is another reason I’m worried.

The first thing I thought of is gout or MBD, but since he’s an adult with no history of MBD/calcium deficiency, I think MBD is much less likely. Supplements schedule below.

He has been to the vet once before (about a year ago) when I suspected a respiratory infection. He was fine, but the blood work showed increased lipids (2+) and she advised me to reduce “fun” bugs and stick to Dubia, crickets, and BSFL which I did. She also said he was a normal weight but a little bit more on the “chubby” side, but only using staple feeders would help with that.

Feeding schedule:
-3-4 1-1.5” Dubia roaches every 2-3 days
- 2 “treat” bugs (hornworms), about once a month
-Dubia are gutloaded with rotating carrot, squash, watercress, apple, tangerine, and commercial gutload
-supplement schedule: Reptivite every other week, Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 every other week, ZooMed Calcium once a month (since he is an adult, when he was juvenile it was every feeding), bee pollen every feeding

Habitat:
-12h grow light + UV light (ZooMed Reptisun 5.0% UVB 8” from basking spot), UVB replaced every 6 months, 12h darkness (although I do not have a UV meter)
-basking spot reads 82F, bottom of cage is 72F, bare bottom enclosure (pic of enclosure below)
-live plants in enclosure
-Daytime humidity 40-50%, MistKing 3 minute misting 30 mins after lights-out at night and before lights-on in morning
-poops every 3-4 days with sperm plugs, urate light cream, I have observed sometimes he is dehydrated with darker urate and I will offer dripper water or a hornworm if i have them
-Room temp is 72, night temp drops several degrees ~68F
-his cage is located in my office which is low-traffic and quiet.
-he has a “free range” area in my office he likes to explore several times a week. In summer I take him outside to bask several times a week.

Medical history
-previous labs attached from 1 year ago, Lipids were high which has been addressed through feeding
-occasionally gets dehydrated, will add dripper and offer hornworm
-no previous infections, no history of MBD
-he has ripped out some of his nails but thankfully they all grew back.
- Routine stool testing for parasites 6 months ago, negative for parasites
-he is eating normally, no other abnormal behaviors
-do his back ankles look chunky to you? Is it just me?

Please let me know what you all think, or if I’m overthinking this and it’s normal behavior. Thanks!

 

[Beman]

I’ve been noticing for the past week or so, sometimes my 2yo male Panther, Worf, will “hang” one of his feet off of the branch when he’s basking and not use it until he moves. I took him out of his cage for an exam, and his grip strength is good on all feet, but he “favors” some when he’s resting in his cage. Attached are pictures of him “favoring” his front Right foot, and pictures of all four feet when I took him out.
Also, I did walk into my office once this week and see that he had his eyes closed and he quickly opened them and gave me the evil eye, which is another reason I’m worried.

The first thing I thought of is gout or MBD, but since he’s an adult with no history of MBD/calcium deficiency, I think MBD is much less likely. Supplements schedule below.

He has been to the vet once before (about a year ago) when I suspected a respiratory infection. He was fine, but the blood work showed increased lipids (2+) and she advised me to reduce “fun” bugs and stick to Dubia, crickets, and BSFL which I did. She also said he was a normal weight but a little bit more on the “chubby” side, but only using staple feeders would help with that.

Feeding schedule:
-3-4 1-1.5” Dubia roaches every 2-3 days
- 2 “treat” bugs (hornworms), about once a month
-Dubia are gutloaded with rotating carrot, squash, watercress, apple, tangerine, and commercial gutload
-supplement schedule: Reptivite every other week, Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 every other week, ZooMed Calcium once a month (since he is an adult, when he was juvenile it was every feeding), bee pollen every feeding

Habitat:
-12h grow light + UV light (ZooMed Reptisun 5.0% UVB 8” from basking spot), UVB replaced every 6 months, 12h darkness (although I do not have a UV meter)
-basking spot reads 82F, bottom of cage is 72F, bare bottom enclosure (pic of enclosure below)
-live plants in enclosure
-Daytime humidity 40-50%, MistKing 3 minute misting 30 mins after lights-out at night and before lights-on in morning
-poops every 3-4 days with sperm plugs, urate light cream, I have observed sometimes he is dehydrated with darker urate and I will offer dripper water or a hornworm if i have them
-Room temp is 72, night temp drops several degrees ~68F
-his cage is located in my office which is low-traffic and quiet.
-he has a “free range” area in my office he likes to explore several times a week. In summer I take him outside to bask several times a week.

Medical history
-previous labs attached from 1 year ago, Lipids were high which has been addressed through feeding
-occasionally gets dehydrated, will add dripper and offer hornworm
-no previous infections, no history of MBD
- Routine stool testing for parasites 6 months ago, negative for parasites
-he is eating normally, no other abnormal behaviors
-do his back ankles look chunky to you? Is it just me?

Please let me know what you all think, or if I’m overthinking this and it’s normal behavior. Thanks!

May I see a few pics of his entire body? What is his current weight and total length?

More details on the supplements please. Is the reptivite with D3? Why are you only using the calcium without d3 at 1 feeding? This should be used at every feeding to balance the phosphorus to calcium level of the feeders. Bee pollen is high risk giving directly every feeding if you are giving this straight. We have seen them develop edema with this.

supplement schedule: Reptivite every other week, Rep-Cal Calcium with D3 every other week, ZooMed Calcium once a month (since he is an adult, when he was juvenile it was every feeding), bee pollen every feeding

 

[Lt.WorfReportingForDuty]

May I see a few pics of his entire body? What is his current weight and total length?

More details on the supplements please. Is the reptivite with D3? Why are you only using the calcium without d3 at 1 feeding? This should be used at every feeding to balance the phosphorus to calcium level of the feeders. Bee pollen is high risk giving directly every feeding if you are giving this straight. We have seen them develop edema with this.

Thanks Beman. I just weighed him at 177g, from nose to back legs 7”, back legs to tail 10”. The vet based their “chubby” analysis on the fact that his cask is slightly out-pouching. Pictures are below.

Omg. The Reptivite does includes D3. I’m so glad you asked because I wouldn’t have checked. So I guess I’ve been giving him double D3 this whole time. Oh my god I feel so bad. Could this be Vitamin D overdose causing edema in the legs? Should I take him to the vet to see if he has calcium deposits from this?

The bee pollen I’ve been sprinkling on as recommended by Neptune’s YouTube videos. Do you think it’s safer to not use at all, or use as a rotation in gutloading?

I will increase the calcium to every feeding. I had read that giving Calcium at every feeding as an adult can be too much, and that they don’t need as much of it because they’re done growing. but I may have read that on the Reddit group so I’m not sure if that is accurate.

Thank you Beman for your response and for responding so quickly.

 

[Beman]

Thanks Beman. I just weighed him at 177g, from nose to back legs 7”, back legs to tail 10”. Pictures are below.

Omg. The Reptivite does includes D3. I’m so glad you asked because I wouldn’t have checked. So I guess I’ve been giving him double D3 this whole time. Oh my god I feel so bad. Could this be Vitamin D overdose causing edema in the legs? Should I take him to the vet to see if he has calcium deposits from this?

The bee pollen I’ve been sprinkling on as recommended by Neptune’s YouTube videos. Do you think it’s safer to not use at all, or use as a rotation in gutloading?

I will increase the calcium to every feeding. I had read that giving Calcium at every feeding as an adult can be too much, and that they don’t need as much of it because they’re done growing. but I may have read that on the Reddit group so I’m not sure if that is accurate.

Thank you Beman for your response and for responding so quickly.

Ok so yes he is a little hefty but not crazy obese. With the size of the feeders your giving you want to make sure your only feeding every 3 days 2-3 of that size. This will help his legs slim down and be more muscular rather than holding the extra fat. Along with reduce some of the fat storage in the casque. Monitor his weight you are only looking for a reduction of a few grams a month. I would see physically what he looks like around 165-170. Like I said he is not crazy obese right now.

So you want to drop the calcium with D3 in your rotation. You will only use the reptivite with D3 every two weeks. And for all other feedings you want to lightly dust with Calcium without D3.
I would stop using the bee pollen directly and add this to your gutload for your feeders. Also for your feeders I would add more green veg. I am attaching a graphic for you.

No need to take him to the vet. He is not in an overdose state just getting a bit too much.

I am not seeing any typical signs of gout. Hanging a limb here and there is not abnormal. As long as his grip is good and tight then I would not worry. Now if you were to see swelling in the joints in the limbs that is a major sign of gout. I see no sign of edema around his gullular either.

So in all he looks really good. Colors are amazing and skin looks great. Just make the adjustments to supplements, gutloading, and feeding.

 

[Lt.WorfReportingForDuty]

Ok so yes he is a little hefty but not crazy obese. With the size of the feeders your giving you want to make sure your only feeding every 3 days 2-3 of that size. This will help his legs slim down and be more muscular rather than holding the extra fat. Along with reduce some of the fat storage in the casque. Monitor his weight you are only looking for a reduction of a few grams a month. I would see physically what he looks like around 165-170. Like I said he is not crazy obese right now.

So you want to drop the calcium with D3 in your rotation. You will only use the reptivite with D3 every two weeks. And for all other feedings you want to lightly dust with Calcium without D3.
I would stop using the bee pollen directly and add this to your gutload for your feeders. Also for your feeders I would add more green veg. I am attaching a graphic for you.

No need to take him to the vet. He is not in an overdose state just getting a bit too much.

I am not seeing any typical signs of gout. Hanging a limb here and there is not abnormal. As long as his grip is good and tight then I would not worry. Now if you were to see swelling in the joints in the limbs that is a major sign of gout. I see no sign of edema around his gullular either.

So in all he looks really good. Colors are amazing and skin looks great. Just make the adjustments to supplements, gutloading, and feeding.


View attachment 349762

Thank you so much!! That’s such a relief. Will do.

 

[Beman]

Thank you so much!! That’s such a relief. Will do.

My pleasure

 

[CalamityCrow]

Double check what's in your commercial gutload too. If you're high-dosing your feeders with A or D3 or any other nutrients, that could lead to the upset in his system as well. Personally, I just gutload with fresh greens and a little fruit and call it good. I give my guy his vitamins 2x/mo and things seem to be going well.

 

[elizaann2]

Also another tip, I feed my bee pollen to my bugs vs dusting it on feeders. Some chams develop edema with bee pollen is given directly.