Help my Jackson looks depressed??

[Borat G R]

We brought him into our home about 1 month ago.

He has been doing great.

He eats, drinks, loves showers (with a spritzer), shows off for us and he is usually active.

Starting yesterday we noticed him resting his head during the day...

This morning he looked happy, he drank from his dripper and his coloring looked good.

I just got home from work, and now he looks like he is majorly depressed?

His eyes are NOT swollen, but he is keeping them closed?? He is opening them too but just resting on a rope, head down, eyes closed, like he is taking a nap.

I spritzed the tank and him, and he still is just laying there?

I also just noticed these really tiny black bugs on the leaves of some plants in his cage?? very small, I will try to get a picture of this bug?? never noticed the bug before, maybe it is nothing???

I just saw him move? hmmmm wonder what he is going to do now?

Am I just being overly paranoid? or could there be something wrong?

Please Help!

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

I love my lil Borat.

 

[Scrappy]

Little black bugs could be mites....not good for the cham.

 

[Borat G R]

mites - are they tiny and stay on the leaves?

 

[Brad]

Am I just being overly paranoid? or could there be something wrong?

It does sound like there is a problem. Chameleons should not be sleeping during the day. As to what the problem is, I don't know. If you want some educated guesses then I highly recommend posting the details of your setup and husbandry methods.
[THREAD=66]link to suggested details[/THREAD]

 

[Borat G R]

somethings off

Here are some pictures of Borat looking sad
the bug
the cage

I am getting all the info on the cage set up and will post that next...

THANKS

 

[Borat G R]

more pics

some more pics

 

[Borat G R]

Cage Info

Cage Info:

Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?

Reptarium 65 gallon - 16.5 x 28 x 30

Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day?

Repti Glo 5.0 fluorescent runs across the top of the cage 30" fixture with the plastic removed so the light is directly hitting the cage 24" bulb on from 8 am - 8 pm

just added this one last week - Super UV coil lamp ESU reptile 20 watts UVB & UVA bulb on from 8 am - 8 pm - in a Flukers clamp lamp 8.5"

Basking light - 8 am - 8 pm day basking light - 100w - Tight beam - exo terra

night lamp - 8 pm - 8am - night light 50w inferred - exo terra - heat glo

We had all lights on top of the cage until last week when we added the super uv coil lamp, we put the basking light slightly behind the cage clipped on something. We felt it was getting to hot in there? So I thought this was a good idea??

Temperature - What temperature range have you created? In the 80's
Basking spot temp? 87*
What is the temperature at night? 78ish
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? Moderate to tropical

How are you creating and maintaining these levels? Spritzing him and cage/plants 3 x per dayPlants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

He has a lot of plant coverage in his cage and he has a lot of the rope/vines (made for reptiles)

1 Lare ficus and 1 small
2 very small sheflerras
1 hibiscus
Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas?

In the basement, no fans, no air vents close by, low traffic area.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon.
Male - Jackson - guess 6-9 months?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? Crickets, wax worms
What amount? Hmmm I would say 4, 5, or 6 crickets per day and twice a week 5 worms What kind of schedule? In the morning I wait for him to warm up (at least in my mind that is what is going on) then I spritz him the cage and the plants really good, turn on the dripper, then I let him drink and chill for a bit, then I put in the food.How are you gut-loading your feeders? Feed the crickets these orange squares, they are in the fridge so I will get more info on that later
Supplements - What are you dusting your feeders with and what kind of schedule do you use?
we dust everyday with calcium t-rex calcium/phosphorus, and every Sunday they get dusted with rep-cal herptivite with beta carotene MultiVitams
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Warm water spritzer and dripper.
Do you see your chameleon drinking? YES
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings.

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.
Starting yesterday we noticed him resting his head during the day...

This morning he looked happy, he drank from his dripper and his coloring looked good.

I just got home from work, and now he looks like he is majorly depressed?

His eyes are NOT swollen, but he is keeping them closed?? He is opening them too but just resting on a rope, head down, eyes closed, like he is taking a nap.

I also just noticed these really tiny black bugs on the leaves of some plants in his cage?? very small, I will try to get a picture of this bug?? never noticed the bug before, maybe it is nothing??? really really small bug, tiny

 

[Jordan]

You posted this thread in the wrong place. You will have to get Brad to move it (P.M.). I think you can do it yourself but I am not sure how.

The two things that I saw that I would switch. Where the gut load and the supplement. Two much acid in their digestive tracts can slow the absorbtion of calcium. I am not sure if this would be one of those case but I think a better gut loading could be obtained. If you are looking for something cheap and easy Flucker's sell some yellow gelatin. I used that for years with good results. I am sure you could find a lot of recommendations on that one if you post a thread. I would not use supplements containing phosphorus. To much phosphorus in their diets can slow and even stop the absorbtion of calcium. The real problem there lies in the insects themselves. Crickets can contian three times as much phosphorus then calcium. Most insect have substainally more phosphorus then calcium. With chameleons you are shooting for a 2:1 ratio (calciumhosphorus). The supplements you are using probably say that on the side of the label but after you tack on the unlevel insects numbers, then add those together it would be some thing like 1:2 or 1:3. Calcium plays vital roles throughout the body. To name a few blood clotting, and maintaining a proper heartbeat. The low calcium and high phosphorus could make him sleepy and lethargic.

Everything else with his husbandry looks good to me.

I think with a few adjustments to his diet he will be back to his old self. I think not doing so could cause complications down the line with M.B.D. All that is stated here is my opinion. I hope it helps.

 

[jkashyap]

My jackson would sleep during the day sometimes too, What is his humidity?? it must be at least 65% ... when i increased my humidity my jackson did better. I am no pro or breeder but i am just throwing it out there, i used a humidifer and small dryer hose to increase humidity u can look at some of my pics, i hope this helps... good luck

 

[Brandy]

stop dusting every day this is not good at all expecially him being a montain cham they cant handle this at all, 2x a month for the cal once for vits is what id recoment.. For now stop all supplements for a good month or more. Start reading up on montains and supplimentation. I have a new supplement iv been usuing geared directly for them that you would use everyday as it is made for that check out http://www.rocksolidherpetoculture....age1a&Itemid=27&category_id=12&product_id=181

 

[kinyonga]

The bugs aren't mites....don't know what they are though.

He doesn't look dehydrated and looks like he's in pretty good condition.

You said..."We had all lights on top of the cage until last week when we added the super uv coil lamp, we put the basking light slightly behind the cage clipped on something. We felt it was getting to hot in there? So I thought this was a good idea??"...if this is the only thing that you changed, maybe its part of the problem? Is he sitting in an area near the heat or could he possibly be trying to get away from the heat?

I would suggest that you improve your gutload. I give my crickets a wide variety of greens and veggies, etc.

You said..."we dust everyday with calcium t-rex calcium/phosphorus, and every Sunday they get dusted with rep-cal herptivite with beta carotene MultiVitams"...I use a phosphorous-free calcium powder because insects already have a poor calcium/phosphorous ratio. I also only dust with vitamins twice a month. Using a beta carotene source is good because it won't let the vitamin A build up in the system. Because my chameleons only get artificial UVB, I also dust with a calcium/D3 powder lightly twice a month. Vitamin D3 can also build up in the system, so don't overdo it! What is in the orange squares in the way of vitamins (A and D in particular)? I've never used them.

IMHO resting on a branch with his eyes shut like you are describing is an indication that something is wrong....but I can't really tell you what. If you can't figure out what is causing it and he continues to do it, I would take him to a vet.

 

[Jordan]

Keep us posted Bogart. He is a cutey.

 

[Scrappy]

The bugs don't look like mites to me either, but I don't know what they are. I think the "orange" gutload being described is Fluker's Orange Cube Cricket Food. They come in a plastic jar and are pretty wet. I use it on my crickets, but I also give them veggies and greens. IMO and experience with it, the orange cube is more to provide moisture than anything else.

 

[Zerah Morris]

Lots of things off here guys.

Temp is the primary thing I see big problems with right away. A jackson cannot be kept like a panther. This is a montane species that does not make the best new keeper cham. Basking temps should not exceed 82, if you feel you must have one. Ambient should be 75-78 max. Loose some of the lights this is not an iguana. Most important is the night time drop, your temps need to pull down into the high to mid 60s at night, the species has been reported to tolerate temps into the 40's as long as given the ability to warm up to the low 70's (AdCham).

Is there any air circulation in the basement? You say no fans. Use a box fan or something and pull air in from the outside as much as possible. Yes this makes keeping humidity high difficult but fresh air is essential so you will need to figure it out. In fact if your fall weather is like mine 75-80 day 55-65 night get the bugger outside!

Spritzing is not really what you are after here either. You need to drench this guy several times a day 3x10min at the least. Humidifier may be necessary; humidity should be 85% average and higher. You may have to cover a few of the sides of your enclosure with plastic shower curtain or something similar.

Supplementing montanes is dangerous if not done correctly. They are very sensitive to overdoses. The RockSolidHerp product mentioned by Brandi is excellent, I still advise against daily use however, 2-3 times a week is the schedule I have used with this product, I use it exclusively since being turned on to it for lowland and montane.

Gut loading is crucial, but likely not your problem here. Buy some real gut load leave the Flukers at PetsMart. The rocksolid gutload product is good, as is WER gut load, I alternate. Supplement with fresh fruit and veggies, collard greens hold up well in the frig.

Most of this is basic montane keeping strategy, do some research, it has been done before. No need to re-write the book.

Good luck.

 

[Jordan]

I think you should move the basking bulb to the front of the cage. At the back of the cage it will have more radiatated heat and less air flow. At the front it will be able to pull air from all sides. This little switch may provide enough of a drop in temperatures in the more favorable range.

I would place the bulb in the front right side.

 

[Borat G R]

Going to the VET today!!

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

I have been changing things around.

NO MORE crazy lights...

Just one basking light right on the top of the cage and one UVB/UVA and no more red/night time light.

I bought new supplements and new cricket food.

I also bought some water/calcium stuff and it seems to be helping.

This morning he was alert, light green and drinking a lot.

He always loves being spritzed and loves to drink water. I have seem him drink less in the past few days, but this morning he was thirsty.

He seems 50% better from the first time I posted.

He has some white spots now on his skin? Not sure what that is. He is still tired looking and still resting his head a little.

But, I finally found a reputable reptile vet that is able to see us. So today at5 pm we are going.

I really really really hope he gets better, we really love him.

My boyfriend and I both have had good success with our past chameleons. But, we both had our own chameleons over 10 years ago, so we are a little rusty...

Thank you all again for all your help.

I will post more after we see the doctor.

 

[Borat G R]

Borat is looking a lil better... but

So we took him to the doctors who said he had an infection and he gave us Beytril and some cream for the sores. Tuesday was the day he went to the doctors. So since Tues he has had meds. He is still tired looking but he is NOT resting his head anymore, he is still closing his eyes though. We have been force feeding him everyday and we have been soaking the worms in gatorade. So it is a slow recovery, but the doctor seemed to think he will get better.

So this morning when we woke up we set up the dripper as usual and as usual he went right to it and was drinking. After he was done drinking he threw up?? We saw it happen. It was heartbreaking. What he threw up was clear looked like waterm, just a lil thicker then water?? I know when I take anti-anti-biotics I throw up? So is it the same? or could that mean he is getting worse even though he seems to be getting better s l o w l y?

 

[Jason]

The two things that I saw that I would switch. Where the gut load and the supplement. Two much acid in their digestive tracts can slow the absorbtion of calcium. I am not sure if this would be one of those case but I think a better gut loading could be obtained. If you are looking for something cheap and easy Flucker's sell some yellow gelatin. I used that for years with good results. I am sure you could find a lot of recommendations on that one if you post a thread. I would not use supplements containing phosphorus. To much phosphorus in their diets can slow and even stop the absorbtion of calcium. The real problem there lies in the insects themselves. Crickets can contian three times as much phosphorus then calcium. Most insect have substainally more phosphorus then calcium. With chameleons you are shooting for a 2:1 ratio (calciumhosphorus). The supplements you are using probably say that on the side of the label but after you tack on the unlevel insects numbers, then add those together it would be some thing like 1:2 or 1:3. Calcium plays vital roles throughout the body. To name a few blood clotting, and maintaining a proper heartbeat. The low calcium and high phosphorus could make him sleepy and lethargic.

I realize that you are trying to help but your information is incorrect, calcium is absorbed more readily in an acidic environment. Calcium carbonate which is what most supplements are made from is alkaline and as such more acid is needed to absorb it properly.

and as Zerah mentioned, leave the flukers stuff at Petsmart. There are much better options out there that are an actual gutload.

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post a picture of the spots on your chameleon, please? Do they look at all like chicken pox or like a small blister or pimple?

If it looks like little pimples, they can be fungal, viral or bacterial....and an antibiotic will likely only work on them if they are bacterial. The pimples I'm describing usually result in death of the chameleon unless treated properly ASAP.

Is it the spots that the vet felt were infected or what did he figure was infected? If it was the spots, did the vet do a culture of them to ensure that he used the right medication?

 

[Borat G R]

Kinyonga

I am at work now, but when I get home I can take a pic of the spots, I think they look like blisters, I would almost say they look like moist sores. The doctor said he thinks Borat got sick from the way he was housed at Petsmart with all the other chameleons and then moving him into the housing we set up for him, with all the changes and stuff that is what he said. ?? I called the doctor today and told him how he threw up and he said not to worry just wait till Monday and call him again with an update. The sores are looking better since we have been putting the cream on… He does seem better in general, but no where near normal yet.

The weird thing is I bought the yellow flukers as a few people suggested it. I put the crickets in a cage with some of that yellow stuff and a few hours later I went to look at the crickets and it looked like a mass suicide… It was crazy! They were all dead on their backs! So I have not used it again… The pet store told me that was a strange occurrence and it was more likely just the crickets?? But if that killed the crickets I am not giving it to them anymore, I don’t want Borat to have something that might have killed many crickets. So I got a new gutload recommend by a manager at a pet store who has many chameleons herself. When I get home I can also let you know what kind that was.

WER gutload – what do you think of that? I have read that is good? But have not bought it yet.

If you have any more suggestions, please let me know. I want to do anything and everything to make him better.

THANK YOU!!