Help..Not eating for many months now :(

Dawniegirl

New Member
I haven't been on here for a while but I have already been through the whole filling out the form and all the stuff you do when you first start. Please see previous threads or if like you like I will copy links and put here. I'm continuing the same thing as far as set up lighting temps, cage, water, etc. So I've got it all down pat as far as set up. I did the whole Vet thing (antibiotic shots every other day 3 weeks/ oral cal), checked for parasites (negative).. What I need to know is Diego (now 1 year 1 month old) has not hunted or wanted to hunt for many MONTHS now. I think he maybe blind and definitely has eye problem(s). I've tried to grind up crickets, various worms and stuff w/o much success but am considering trying it again. I have been force feeding (not so much forcing now, he actually eats it when I put a drop on the front of his month) Carnivore Care about once or twice a week ever since he stopped eating. He puts his tongue out only about 1- 1 1/2 inches for water on leaves or to lick up the food. I tried not to give the Carnivore Care to him so much that he wasn't hungry enough to attempt to eat live food but then when I see he doesn't eat and looks weak I give it again. Then "HOPE" he will eat live food, so I try it again the whole thing over again... and then all over again!!!! I once or twice have got a live cricket in his mouth but it took a huge effort on my part cause he kept dropping it from his mouth.. had to put it in there while he was drinking because even if he feels the cricket on his mouth he won't open his mouth for it and not even if I hold it away from him to hand feed (I think he doesn't see it but thought if he felt it that maybe he'd go for it). Then I figured maybe it might interest him once he got a taste and I could had feed him more but NO! I put various worms in his cage but no attempt even for them! I put a worm in his mouth when he first went on the hungry strike and he literally throw the worm out from his mouth across the room!!! I've come to the realization that I may have to force/hand feed him for his life! For now I'm going to start a every other day feeding of Carivore Care but I do have a large supply of live supers that I could grind :( for him. I'll been raising the supers since they were micro size... would that be better for him??? (I had them in a container filled with oatmeal oats and give them apples every other day. I've had NO supers die and I think I've actually got a super farm going cause there are small ones into there now too.) If so and supers are better, then after I blend them should I try to strain the worm shell out or give it just as it's blended. ****MOST IMPORTANTLY... I REALLY want to get his weight up and get him stronger. What food (or poss keep w/ Carnivore Care) would be be to do this???***** Also I still slip him his oral calcium at least once and sometimes twice a week during the feedings and Repi-Aid (hoping to help the eye thing), along with Termycin(sp) cream and liq eye drops when needed. He is getting skinny and week. I'm going do everything I can to not let him suffer and know he's starting to because he's getting skinny now :*(. He has shed at least 3 times since he stopped eating on his own but in shedding in sections instead the the complete sheds like when he was young (I know that is normal). So since he doesn't seem to mind his personalized hand feeding.. I'm going give up on live food at least til he's stronger again and has gotten much more weight on him!!!! I need to fattin up my boy, HELP/ Advise PLEASE!!!!!!!! TIA
 
Yes you need to provide the links if you want to make it easy for people to read your old threads.

Carnivor care is for meat eaters, NOT for insect eaters. A little short term is acceptable, but I wouldnt use it as long as it feels like you may have.

Insectivor care would be better, along with your own "bug juice" whenever possible
I would suggest smashing up the superworms (but gutload them well, not just oats and apples) along with properly gutloaded crickets, butterworms, etc. Leave some of the "shell" in as it will be good for digestive system (like fibre for us, kinda). In your gutloading, Pay attention to Vitamin A and B vitamins - both are linked to eye issues. Add calcium. Add other supplements as needed. Add sufficient water to facilitate blending (you want to get lots of water into him as well as food if he's not eating / drinking well on his own). Could add a bit of pedialite in addition to water. Might use a needless syringe to gently squirt onto the tip of his tongue if that works, otherwise read up on how to properly force feed so as not to cause his to aspirate. Ensure you are gutloading the feeders well and supplementing properly. Feed well severaly times daily if he is underweight. Aim for the equivalent of ten bugs daily, until you see the weight increase.


Your vet, if qualified, should be able to tell you what is wrong in terms of eyesight or supplementation.
 
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Thanks for the advise. Vet said his Cal to phos level was 1:1 and if I remember right should be 2:1 & the reason I have the oral Cal for him (no other signs of MBD as in with his walk, stance or legs bent.. all good there). Hmmm.. Good point "carnivore" care... duhhh, makes sense. He has ALWAYS been VERY small and at 7 months he was only I think 29 grams. He is I'm guessing to be only 40- 50 grams due to some growth in length and his tail length grow a lot (I need to buy a scale and really should have before now.. my bad :( didn't really need to weigh him but it would be helpful now to monitor weight gain or god forbid lose). How would I know if I'm over feeding him??? How much should I feed a cham of that size? He is about 6 inches from nose to vent or no more then 7 with a very long tail to boot. You think 3 feedings a day? How do I judge amounts to give? I'm scared to over feed but he does really need it. Thanks Again and I can add in some of the links.




Yes you need to provide the links if you want to make it easy for people to read your old threads.

Carnivor care is for meat eaters, NOT for insect eaters. A little short term is acceptable, but I wouldnt use it as long as it feels like you may have.

I would suggest smashing up the superworms (but gutload them well, not just oats and apples) along with properly gutloaded crickets, butterworms, etc. Leave some of the "shell" in as it will be good for digestive system (like fibre for us, kinda). Add calcium and supplements. Add a little water as needed. Might use a needless syringe to gently squirt onto the tip of his tongue if that works, otherwise read up on how to properly force feed so as not to cause his to aspirate. Ensure you are gutloading the feeders well and supplementing properly. Feed well severaly times daily if he is underweight. Aim for the equivalent of ten bugs daily, until you see the weight increase.

Your vet, if qualified, should be able to tell you what is wrong in terms of eyesight or supplementation.
 
How do I judge amounts to give? I'm scared to over feed but he does really need it.

You judge by if he gains weight at a slow steady rate, until the fat pads on his head begin to buldge.

Do you have a current photo you could post?

Also I'd encourage you to complete the "how to ask for help" questionaire, in DETAIL, with the most current information. Even if you copy from an old thread and paste here with updates.
 
Adding links into this thread...

Vet visit results and reason for meds... https://www.chameleonforums.com/claforan-update-diegos-meds-53093/

Also original Set up and Supplements Form filled out in this one https://www.chameleonforums.com/want-another-opinion-urate-orangish-what-do-you-think-tia-49698/
This might be missing one or two things or I might have tweaked a thing or two from advise on here. I need to re-read to be sure but general all the same.


BTW gonna STOP Carivore care and order insectivore Care ASAP as back up to bug juice I'm gonna start. Along with other insects for bug juice ASAP.
 
I will try to get a pic tomorrow on here if I can. Gonna get him some "real" sun (he seems to really enjoy it), grind up some supers and make sure he has a good drink tomorrow again. I will try to snap a shoot some where along the line. On;y problem is that I'll need to find my cord to download pic into computer. Tonight off to a site to order more of a variety of worms, more crickets and insectivore care as back up to bug juice. It kills me to grind them up but I need to do what I need to do for my lil guy!!!! I'll say a prayer for forgiveness then grind them. It feels much worse for me to grind them and doesn't seem to bother me though to put them in his cage or even his mouth.. I don't know why. Thanks


You judge by if he gains weight at a slow steady rate, until the fat pads on his head begin to buldge.

Do you have a current photo you could post?

Also I'd encourage you to complete the "how to ask for help" questionaire, in DETAIL, with the most current information. Even if you copy from an old thread and paste here with updates.
 
Sorry pic might not be that helpful but here it is

Taken 6/4/11 the best picture I could get.. tried to steal it from my own FB but they make it hard to do now. Almost not helpful at all but here it is...
 

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Sorry but I'm not going to read all of your threads to get some information that I might need to help you. You only have two threads that mention eating in the title....if its been going on so long its a shame you didn't you post more about it before he got skinny.

In this thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/diego-update-last-few-posts-54880/
you said..."He stopped sticking out his tongue and today keep trying to push it out."....was there something wrong with his tongue?

How long have you been using the carnivore care now?
 
I just saw an old Thread with Laurie for a bug juice recipe she gave me and I was using. I did do this after she suggested for a bit but then, I think, I thought he was eating. Then I realized he wasn't and grabbed the carivore care again cause I had it and the ensure and pedi expired. I did at the time use the power ensure mixed w/pedialyte cause power form of Ensure keep for a much longer shelf life then liquid and I mixed some original flavor clear pedialyte liquid in there with it all (including crickets)... I'm gonna give this a shot again and stop the carivore care. Gonna do worms as well and maybe worms with crickets and the liquids. Any more suggestions, amounts to feed, recipes??? Thanks ALL
 
He had an eye issue on arrival (along with some other small things as well that did turn up to be beginners fears and or learned from.. like the shower/ dehydration stuff, mistings). Then at some point he stopped eating.. maybe 3-4 month after I had him. That's I guess when he stopped shooting his tongue and we went to vet. Vet said his Cal to Phos ratio was off.. it was 1:1 and should have been 2:1. With the bug juice I mixed up I added in the liquid cal and gave that as well. There have been a lot of back and fourth with his heath.. good, then not good, then good again then not so good. I think where I went wrong this time was the carivore care. I had gotten off track with the home made bug juice I was doing and went back to carivore care. I should have went back to the bug juice sooner. I think I kept doing it cause I thought it would be better to get some more weight on him and hoped then he would start to eat live food again but he did and it didn't help. I see that now it was wrong and I'm immediately going back to bug juice. I'm very worried now cause I see how skinny his has become recently and want to put weight on him ASAP. So I want to know what are the best insect for such a thing??? Also I'm afraid that I could over feed and do him harm as well. I hoping I can get a better idea of a good amount of food and how many times a day and such. I think he should only be eating about 6-10 1/2"-3/4" Crickets every other day for his age but he's is skinny so maybe 10 daily til he gets weight on him, along with ensure in there and pedialyte... I 'm not sure!


Sorry but I'm not going to read all of your threads to get some information that I might need to help you. You only have two threads that mention eating in the title....if its been going on so long its a shame you didn't you post more about it before he got skinny.

In this thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/diego-update-last-few-posts-54880/
you said..."He stopped sticking out his tongue and today keep trying to push it out."....was there something wrong with his tongue?

How long have you been using the carnivore care now?
 
Why don't you take the time to refill out the how to ask for help? Im not going to go searching through your threads but i bet someone here could spot something if you do.
 
Carnivore care most likely has vitamin A in it and D3 and phosphorus and in addition to that you are giving him calcium. I have no way of knowing how out of whack his nutrient balance might be by now...but what I think you need to do is get him back to being a normal chameleon....eating insects or "bug juice" along with proper supplements and a good UVB (long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube) light or sunlight...and have the vet run tests again to see what the calcium/D3/Vitamin A/phos. ratios are. If the ratios are off, you will need to balance them before you go back to a normal supplement regime. You also need to gutload/feed the insects a nutritious diet. You need to get all of this in order ASAP since his problems have gone on for so long and he's getting thin....IMHO.

An adult male panther chameleon can likely eat 15 or 20 full grown crickets every two or three days without any problem (to maintain his weight).

Have his eye been okay lately?
Are his head pads sunken in?
Can you post a couple of pictures that are large enough to see him clearly please?

Here's some information I hope will help you too with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it. At that size you only need to feed it every two or three days. Feed it enough that it doesn't get fat (and, of course, doesn't get thin either).

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
Here it is and updated..

* Your Chameleon - Male, 1 year 1 month & had him since about 4 months old

* Handling - to feed only since I need to force feed.

* Feeding - Currently force feeding. Was doing bug juice but for a while now Carnivore Care (Stopping ASAP the Carivore care and back to Bug juice or if need be invectivore care)

* Supplements - Liquid oral calcium 1-2x week (vet said it 10x strong the the power and easily digested) that it since he's not been eating real food.

* Watering - Misting King every hour for about 1 minute- 1 min 45 seconds about 6 times daily (I think) & also have dripper. No misting or dripper for 3 hours prior to lights out so it can dry up in cage. No problem with drinking usually.

* Fecal Description - White urite and stool soft alway from food. Not much stool lately due to lack of eating.

* History - Not eating live food for many many months. Stopped shooting his tongue when he stopped eating, but does put it out now 1- 1 1/2"(at most) to drink. He shut his eyes in day like he's resting but tail not curled like when he sleeps.. done this since I've had him (but this has been better for periods of time the starts again). Problem on and off with one eye and he doesn't seem to see (eye doesn't alway open up fully but he has NEVER has any gunk or NEVER discharge from it either JUST doesn't alway open eye and he use to continuously bulge it when I first got him. His Calcium to Phos level was off.. it was 1:1 instead of 2:1 but it may be better since the oral cal. It has not been recheck to know for sure.


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Screened cage 16" deep 24" long by 30" high

* Lighting - Basking lamp is 50 watt white bulb brand All Living Things, also Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 UVB Fluorescent Bulbs. Lights on 12 and off 12 hours.

* Temperature - cage temp 71- low 90's in basking area. over night temp about 65-68 degrees

* Humidity - 50- 80 (80 after misting)

* Plants - Ficus tree, branches & fake vines wrapped & round & hanging down from branches

* Placement - in corner 3- 3 1/5 feet from floor on top of Exo- Terra stand. Vent on floor closed AND covered up to ensure no air flow coming out. No windows near cage.

* Location - Cage in Family room near Tv (speaker for Tv is faced away from him cage, for vibrates reasons not sound reasons.. I know he's deaf)






Why don't you take the time to refill out the how to ask for help? Im not going to go searching through your threads but i bet someone here could spot something if you do.
 
Can't really dust cause he doesn't eat but will start to add some to the bug juice. He has ALWAYS had an eye issue ever since I got him. It seem to get better for periods of time and then comes back. I swear though I think he may be blind or close to it. Today his eyes did seem sunken slightly and before I left for work I made sure he drank and he did a good job of it too. I gave him a feeding yesterday but not today.. thought I should do it now every other day but after posting this I'm going to do daily w "bug juice"!!!! His head pads have alway been very slightly sunken I guess but again I didn't like how they looked today either. I will try my best to post pics but can't even try til tomorrow. Thanks for the additional info and sites. I also posted the help form filled out with more up to date stuff on it in this thread.


Carnivore care most likely has vitamin A in it and D3 and phosphorus and in addition to that you are giving him calcium. I have no way of knowing how out of whack his nutrient balance might be by now...but what I think you need to do is get him back to being a normal chameleon....eating insects or "bug juice" along with proper supplements and a good UVB (long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube) light or sunlight...and have the vet run tests again to see what the calcium/D3/Vitamin A/phos. ratios are. If the ratios are off, you will need to balance them before you go back to a normal supplement regime. You also need to gutload/feed the insects a nutritious diet. You need to get all of this in order ASAP since his problems have gone on for so long and he's getting thin....IMHO.

An adult male panther chameleon can likely eat 15 or 20 full grown crickets every two or three days without any problem (to maintain his weight).

Have his eye been okay lately?
Are his head pads sunken in?
Can you post a couple of pictures that are large enough to see him clearly please?

Here's some information I hope will help you too with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it. At that size you only need to feed it every two or three days. Feed it enough that it doesn't get fat (and, of course, doesn't get thin either).

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
If you want this animal to live, here are my Suggestions, based on my personal thoughts only (I am not a vet):
  • get vet recheck of calcium etc levels and eyes
  • do actually stop using the carnivore care
  • do feed him at least ten insects, juiced, every day
  • I would suggest you use crickets, butterworms, silkworms and superworms as this provides a nice mix of fat and nutrient. Do ensure those insects are PROPERLY GUTLOADED (see the links I've already provided). Your vet test results will help determine how much calcium to add, but likely this is needed daily every feeding (not once or twice a week as you indicated above)
  • Once weekly add a tiny bit of juiced dandelion and a tiny bit of papaya or a few drops of orange juice, and a few granuels of spirulina or kelp powder, and a just one or two granuels of brewers yeast to the bug juice blend. I suggest these particular items for a reason - B vitamins, calcium content and iodine.
  • Provide up to date photo, something big enough to be helpful
  • Try to find an experienced chameleon keeper in your area, and have them visit you and see if there's anything being missed that's not obvious
  • low priority - consider Putting his cage somewhere with low traffic, not a family room with people coming and going.
 
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When was the last time you changes the uvb bulb? If its old he's not getting the uv he needs to absorb nutrition or stimulate hunger like Kinyonga mentioned in her post.

If his levels are messed up you may want to stop using super worms and use really good gutloaded crickets, maybe get silkworms, hornworms, reptiworms and use those in your bug juice. Just my opinon

LLL sells insectivore also for future reference.
 
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