help! possible MBD

[jvpiccione66]

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Male, Veiled cham, not sure how old he is but ive had him since feb 2010
* Handling - 3-5 times a week
* Feeding - large crickets, anywhere from 5-10 a day
* Supplements -

i dust 2 times a week with both supp.
* Watering - i have a big dripper i fill every morning and spray in the mrning and 4-5 more times during the day, i see him drinking sometimes but not often
* Fecal Description - seems normal, dark brown, noo tests ever ran
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
* Location - Where are you geographically located?

here is a pic of my setup

Current Problem - i want to know if my baby reptar has mbd, he seems to be showing signs but im unsure i included a pic of all his legs and if so what action should i take?

 

[Ocelot357]

not really sure...but someone else will know.By the way, i ve read a lot on here that those twirly uvb bulbs are not good, use a tube bulb for the uvb light.

 

[jvpiccione66]

ok, like a reptisun? cuz the one i bought is supposed to be some new and improved light, its actually made by reptisun and its supposively had the issues with giving chams eye issues fixed

i am totally gonna tryn save for one though i just dont have the spare cash at hand at the moment

 

[CNorton]

You have to actually fill out the form if you want us to help you. It appears you picked a few and then decided to just post pics.

There seems to be discoloration on the casque (black spots). Why do you have two basking bulbs? One should be sufficient unless you are keeping the chameleon in an extremely cold room, in which case that is also a problem.

From what I can tell, it does appear that your cham has MBD. In the pic, I can't see ANY UVB (flourescent) lighting. That IS ESSENTIAL!

You will be best off with a Reptisun 5.0 linear bulb. Don't trust anyone that tries to sell you something that is an "improvement" over what has been tried and true for most of us keepers on this forum. You can buy the bulb here.

Please help us help you!

 

[jvpiccione66]

ok well what do i need to do about it? thats my question?

and i do have a uvb bulb its a reptisun 5.0UVB flourescent




Cage Info:

* Cage Type - all screen tall tank, not sure dimensions i believe its the same size as a 29 gal
* Lighting - Reptisun 5.0UVB flourscent
* Temperature - he is in my back room and im on the 3rd story in an apt. Its always pretty toasty in here and fairly humid without spraying or dripper.
it runs anwhere between 75-85 with his basking spot around 90-95 and the lowest its ever got at night is around 68-70
* Humidity - i use 3 hygrometers one on the bottom, middle, and top, it seems to stay around 55% but when i spray a lot i can easily get my % to raise, i keep it at around 60-65%
* Plants - All fake
* Placement - corner of my computer desk in my back room, there is normally a fan that blows down the hall but its at the opposite end
* Location - indiana

 

[beeze]

You need to take him the a vet that knows chameleons and he will give you liquid calcium to give him and shots to draw the calcium to the bones. You need to take him right away before it gets worse. The calcium and shots will stop it from getting worse but his bones will be crooked the rest of his life. It will not reverse the damage already done but it will make his bones hard again and he can still live a good life.

 

[ajacobson]

Yes he definitely has MBD, you can tell in the front leg, it shouldn't be curvy like an "S". Take him to the vet and get liquid calcium. He's already deformed, and it will stay like that but at least he will still live. You should use calcium without D3 lightly every day. The Calcium WITH d3 twice a month and the vitamin 1 time a month.

The compact UVB can cause eye damage, so you should switch it out to a linear bulb. Hope this helps!

 

[kinyonga]

Not only do you have to bring its nutrient levels back in line, you need to keep them there.

You said you use the Reptivite and the Reptical twice a week each...so you are giving it more D3 (if I'm right about it being in the Reptical) and also giving it prEformed vitamin A (if I'm right about it being in the Reptivite) fairly often.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus, its important to dust the insects at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder.

I use a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it and leaving the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to UVB. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB it shouldn't produce too much from the UVB light exposure.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that has a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene (prOformed) vitamin A won't build up in the chameleon's system, but its controversial as to whether all/any chameleons can convert it...so some people use a little prEformed once in a while. Excess prEformed vitamin A may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD.

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at the supplements you use, what you feed to the chameleon and what you feed to the insects when trying to balance them.

I gutload/feed crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, collards, kale, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, zucchini, etc.).

 

[Elizadolots]

Kinyonga, both the Reptivite and the Reptical have D3. I have those same jars in my collection. The Reptivite lists "Vitamin A Acetate" which I believe is "prEformed" vitamin A.

jvpiccione, the deal is, the D-3 is needed to let the body absorb calcium, but it acts to prevent the correct processing of Vitamin A which is essential to chameleon eye health among other things. So, it's a balancing act. Kinyonga has told you how to stay on the tight rope.

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for the comment and the info Eliza! I get tired of looking up the information on the vitamins...and I always wonder if they change the bottles.

 

[Elizadolots]

You're welcome. It's great that the original poster provided such a good picture. I suspect that, like me, those were gifts of the store.

Another issue is the Fluckers Cricket food. While I'm not anti Fluckers, I know that the "High Calcium" version includes D3...so, yet one more way the animal is getting that.

 

[jvpiccione66]

thank you all for the help, but i ran into another problem today...

the closest herp vet i found i gave a phonecall, and for some reason they think its ok to charge out the ass just for a visit. and im kinda in a money bing for my own bills let alone a vet bill. i dont want him to get worse so im thinking untill i get money saved, i can at least buy new dust, dust like ive been told, and imma start putting him outside for at least a few hours a day on my balcony, would the natural sun help me at all till i can afford it

 

[Elizadolots]

Natural sun is always good. Make sure you stay with him though and that he has places to hide and water to drink.

Was he full grown when you got him? It seems to me you've only had him 4 maybe 5 months so it's likely that it was a previous owner that did the damage. Once you get everything stabilized, I believe you'll find he does quite well. You can't really fix the damage, but you can stop it from getting worse.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

As others have suggested you need to change your supplementing and the light issue asap. Also you need to ditch the flukers cricket feed. Get some cricket crack or make your own dry gutload. Theres recipes on this forum. Also your wet gutload should be comprised of as many different fruits and veggies as possible. You also need to start feeding him something besides just crickets. They have one of the worst calcium to phos ratios of any of the readily available feeders. Try switching things up between crickets, hornworms, silkworms, and roaches. You need a minimum of 3 diff feeders.

 

[jvpiccione66]

well could anyone do me a huuuuge fave and gimme a list i should grab of supplements and maybe a few guidlines i should follow with that certain brand or whatever.

im gonna be heading to a few petstores tomorrow so any advice on what brand and what kind of sups to buy would be much appreciated!

 

[jvpiccione66]

oh and also to elizadolots, i bought him when he was suuuppppper tiny compared to his size now at a reptile show in feb, ill post a pic because the breeder bounced around telling me how old he was.


this is a pic from about 2-3 weeks after i got him

 

[Elizadolots]

Okay, well, like I said, you can't make it go away, but you can stop it from getting worse and he'll likely do very well.

For supplements, if you get plain calcium with no D3 and a jar of the reptivite without D3, you'll be pretty set.

I think the normal recommended schedule is calcium (no D3) every day. 2 times a month give him reptivite with D3 and 2 times a month give him reptivite without D3 (alternate them). So, he gets calcium every day, vitamins about once a week and D3 twice a month.

 

[kinyonga]

I explained how to supplement earlier in this thread. I use Rep-Cal without D3, Rep-Cal with D3, and Herptivite.

 

[Elizadolots]

Given that the animal has obvious problems, should the owner do anything more now in the way of supplements or just try to establish the normal routine?

 

[kinyonga]

The animal should see a vet so that things are checked out and things corrected properly.

In post #16 the picture looks like the front left leg is already showing signs of MBD...so the chameleon might have had it or the beginning of it before jvpiccione66 got it.

However, jvpiccione66, you have been using supplements with D3 and vitamin A more often than usually recommended and not been using phos.-free calcium as often as usually recommended.

There is a liquid calcium (calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate) that can be given to the chameleon to bring the levels up...but without any testing its hard to know how much to give and how often. It wouldn't likely hurt it to give it some extra calcium for a short time since it hasn't been getting enough though.

I'm not a vet and can only give you my best "guess" on this.