help! sickly veiled

[lovedlea]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - veiled, female, 9 months old (i think), 1 month in my care
Handling - Regularly. At least daily, especially lately since she's been sick.
Feeding - Crickets gutfed Flukers High-Calcium Diet & Flukers Calcium-fortified Quencher. 15 to 20 crickets and 5 to 10 mealworms every other day.
Supplements - Flukers 2:1 calciumhosphorus that has 100000 iu/lb vit D3 dusted on the crickets at every feeding (I've recently read d3 every feeding is bad, so she didn't get that this last feeding.)
Watering - We hand spray (with filtered water & zilla tropical mist humidifying spray) two to five times a day. Our mister/humidifier recently broke (about a week ago) but there's been a bowl of water in the bottom of the tank always. I've never seen her drink out of it. I put a bowl w/ a drip hole in last night and I've seen her try to drink from that but I haven't seen her do it successfully. I started giving her water out of a dropper by hand today and she's been drinking like a fish that way since I got home from work. (2 hours off and on)
Fecal Description - dark and white (no orange) and never been tested
History - When we first got her, she was attacked by our other female (now deceased) before we could get her cage set up. She was healthy and happy for a bit, and mating colors so we put her in with our male. They got along well. I recently moved her back to her own cage because she looked like she was getting ill. (The cage set up for the cage she was in with our male is almost exactly like what she's in now in a separate room of the house. Also, he is showing none of the symptoms she's showing.)

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen 18x18x36
Lighting - Her day light is exo terra 26w reptile tropical uvb 100. Her basking light is exo terra sunglow 100. Both are on from 7am to 9pm. Her night basking lamp is exo terra night glo 75w and on from 9pm to 7am.
Temperature - Her basking temp is at least 92. at night it doesn't get any colder than 74 in our apt & she has a heating lamp for the night time.
Humidity - 55-60%
Plants - no live plants
Placement - Cage is in the corner of the living room, out of traffic. Near a window but the shades are rarely open. No drafts that I can find.
Location - Dallas

Current Problem - We came in a few nights ago to find her on the bottom of the cage, lethargic (possibly sleeping but she opened her eyes when she heard us come in). She hasn't been gripping as strongly, and she seems to be having trouble shooting her tongue out as far as she used to. Her eyes are obviously sunken and she feels thinner than she was. I have personally witnessed her eating every time we've fed her (except yesterday). I hand fed her 5 crickets and 3 mealworms today because she didn't eat yesterday. After reading a lot on the forums yesterday, I started giving her water through a dropper today. (Also, I checked for MBD or whatever and her legs look fine.)

Besides the general health that is clearly an issue, there were a few other things I had questions on. Do I need to dust the crickets with something that doesn't have d3 (even though the crickets are gutfed supplements). Should I get a liquid calcium and feed it to her through a dropper?

Also, sadly, our other female died a week ago. She was exhibiting the same signs as Ellie is now. I took her to a vet who said she was healthy and to just force feed her. But since I've been researching on here more the past week, I think he had no idea what he was talking about. He was obviously a cat/dog vet, not a herp vet.

PHOTOS TO FOLLOW

 

[lovedlea]

Album with pics of Ellie & her cage set up.

 

[dnallivah]

Does she have a laying bin?

 

[lovedlea]

I totally forgot to mention that I checked her for eggs (felt around her tummy) and she's not ready yet. But we are getting her a laying bin soon.

 

[carol5208]

Why did you put her in with the male? Did you want them to breed? Did they breed? If she was not receptive to the male, that could totally stress her out. If she is gravid and was still in with the male, that could also stress her out. What happened to the other chameleon that died? Did you put that one in with the male also? Also, you are using a high concentration of d3 and that is not good to use as often as you were. I am not so sure it would make her ill in a month, but it could if she was overdosed on it. Was the male also given the d3 as well? And what about the chameleon that died? How long was it given the d3 on a daily basis? BTW she does not look good in the pics as her eyes are sunken in. If she is drinking, then she is not dehydrated and sunken eyes can be a sign that they are going down hill.

 

[lovedlea]

Why did you put her in with the male? Did you want them to breed? Did they breed? If she was not receptive to the male, that could totally stress her out. If she is gravid and was still in with the male, that could also stress her out. What happened to the other chameleon that died? Did you put that one in with the male also? Also, you are using a high concentration of d3 and that is not good to use as often as you were. I am not so sure it would make her ill in a month, but it could if she was overdosed on it. Was the male also given the d3 as well? And what about the chameleon that died? How long was it given the d3 on a daily basis?

As I said above, she was put in with the male when she was receptive colors (yellow/blue) and taken out when she was no longer receptive colors. I have no idea if they mated or tried, but she's not gravid.
The other chameleon never went near the male.
We've had all 3 for a month, the other female died a few days ago. They've all been getting exactly the d3 that I already said they were getting, dusted on their crickets every other day. And I already know it's too much, as I said.

 

[carol5208]

Stress can cause them to become ill. You stated you recently moved her back to her own cage because she looked ill. I was assuming by this statement that you did not just leave her in for a few hours or so to mate and left her in there for a period of time. If was any lenghthly period of time ,it could have caused her to get sick. Also, can they see each other now? Can any of the chameleons see each other? Some can get very stressed out just by the sight of one another so a visual barrier is usually suggested to they cannot view each other. Another possibility is parasites. Some of them can be spread from one chameleon to the other, especially if they have shared the same enclosure. Seeing that you lost one already, and if you do not know why ,you might want to get a fecal done on your other chameleons to be on the safe side.

 

[lovedlea]

As stated before, the cages are in different rooms.
The male is healthy and doesn't seem to be experiencing the problems the females experienced.

 

[carol5208]

Oh sorry, I guess I need to read better! So what exactly happened to the other female?

 

[dnallivah]

I totally forgot to mention that I checked her for eggs (felt around her tummy) and she's not ready yet. But we are getting her a laying bin soon.

I'm certainly no expert. I only have my one girl and a rather not pleasant recent experience. Body wise she looks a lot like my girl right before the worst of it, and the fact you're finding her on the bottom of her cage made me think she might have been looking to dig. If you're hoping to mate/breed them I will assume in good faith that you know what you're looking for when you feel for eggs.

Do you have substrate on the bottom? If so you should remove it, as she could accidentally eat that and become impacted.

Considering you had one female recently pass, I would highly recommend going to the vet. Otherwise from the looks of things you might be losing another one soon. I know showering my girl helped but it certainly wouldn't have kept her alive forever.

Good luck, I hope you figure it out before it's too late. Wish I had actual advice that could help you out.

 

[lovedlea]

No idea. She was acting the way Ellie is acting now (except her eyes weren't sunken like Ellie's) and I took her to the vet. The vet said she was fine & to force feed her. I did. Woke up a few days ago and she was dead.

I don't know what to do about Ellie though, since the vet didn't save my other female. (except maybe get a new vet, but herp vets are hard to find).

I was hoping someone on here would have some suggestions on what's actually wrong with Ellie and how I can help her.

 

[lovedlea]

I'm certainly no expert. I only have my one girl and a rather not pleasant recent experience. Body wise she looks a lot like my girl right before the worst of it, and the fact you're finding her on the bottom of her cage made me think she might have been looking to dig. If you're hoping to mate/breed them I will assume in good faith that you know what you're looking for when you feel for eggs.

Do you have substrate on the bottom? If so you should remove it, as she could accidentally eat that and become impacted.

Considering you had one female recently pass, I would highly recommend going to the vet. Otherwise from the looks of things you might be losing another one soon. I know showering my girl helped but it certainly wouldn't have kept her alive forever.

Good luck, I hope you figure it out before it's too late. Wish I had actual advice that could help you out.

I'm mostly going off what I've read on here from looking up similar problems other people have had. That's all I can think to do right now. I'm doing everything I can possibly imagine would help. I haven't tried showering her yet, though as I'm not sure exactly how or what temp etc etc.

 

[dnallivah]

Search here in the forum, it's mentioned a few times. I placed my girl in a plant at the back of the shower. Aimed the water at the wall so it could bounce off onto her wall. I had my water fairly warm because by the time it bounced off the wall and onto her plant it cooled some.

From some of the reading here, in some areas this might not be recommended due to chemicals and such in your water. We have great water here, and I was too sick to take my girl to the vet when we decided I needed to take her.

I showered her enough to make sure her drinking reflex kicked in and let her stay for a bit...then I closed off the room after turning off the water to allow her to kind of soak up the humidity. I don't know if that was worthwhile or not, but every time she showered she kind of perked up a little. Obviously without her drinking throughout the day it didn't last.

Like I said though - I'm a first time cham owner, only 3 months in. I'm not the best for giving advice.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry you lost one female already.

IMHO you need to get her to a vet ASAP. She does not look well at all and since the other female died I would wonder if this one is sick because of that.

What was the date that you put her in with the male?

Not being able to extend the tongue fully can be an indication of MBD even though I don't see any apparent signs of it in her limbs. Too much D3 can push the chameleon towards MBD.

 

[teejayteej]

"Her night basking lamp is exo terra night glo 75w and on from 9pm to 7am."

I just noticed that you have a night basking light.... this may be one of your problems. They need the total dark and cooling time at night. They can see all types of light and need to be in a dark area to sleep well.

you also stated that you sprayer broke a few days ago and now you have just put a bowl of water? I think that is what I read?
Some will drink out of a bowl (not many and is not recommended) but even if they do you still need to spray the cage to keep the humility up in the enclosure.

 

[teejayteej]

Your first problem is re-hydration then you need to give her total dark and a laying bin. she may be needing to lay eggs but you can't feel them because she is dehydrated and the eggs may not be fully developed because of her lack of water to share with the egg development. (in other words trying to have a miscarriage of eggs that did not develop correctly) Try to find a good vet that knows what they are doing ASAP, but until then try to get as much fluids in your little lady as you can.

 

[sharp229]

In your last picture it looks like she has a critical injury to her tail. Do you know what caused this? It could become infected.

But like others said, with the way she looks you really need a good reptile vet that knows about chameleons or can contact another vet who knows. I am not sure which vets in Dallas are good, but you can try looking through the below:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/area-area-country-vet-list-32880/
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/texas.shtml

I didn't find one listed in the first on a quick text search, but there were a couple reptile vets listed on the second link. Not sure the reputation though.

I also agree that you should have no heating or lights at night unless your house gets colder than 50F. 74F is a really high night temperature, in the 60s would definitely be preferable since it helps their metabolism slow down. The recommended daylight cycle is usually 12 hours with lights and 12 hours of darkness.

But from the information provided and the pics, there are a lot of different potential causes of the current situation.

 

[carol5208]

In your last picture it looks like she has a critical injury to her tail. Do you know what caused this? It could become infected.

But like others said, with the way she looks you really need a good reptile vet that knows about chameleons or can contact another vet who knows. I am not sure which vets in Dallas are good, but you can try looking through the below:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/area-area-country-vet-list-32880/
http://www.herpvetconnection.com/texas.shtml

I didn't find one listed in the first on a quick text search, but there were a couple reptile vets listed on the second link. Not sure the reputation though.

I also agree that you should have no heating or lights at night unless your house gets colder than 50F. 74F is a really high night temperature, in the 60s would definitely be preferable since it helps their metabolism slow down. The recommended daylight cycle is usually 12 hours with lights and 12 hours of darkness.

But from the information provided and the pics, there are a lot of different potential causes of the current situation.

you are right about the tail. I did not even look a the third pictures which shows the tail. It looks necrotic and she needs to be seen by a vet for that also. I would get her in asap.

 

[lovedlea]

She/the cage has been sprayed regularly since the mister broke. The humidity has been kept in safe levels.

I was told there's nothing you can do about tail necrosis. Our boy had it when we bought him and the vet said there's nothing you can do. (Again, same vet that I'm not sure knows what he's talking about. Please tell me if there's something else I can do for her.)

A quick update this morning: She's much more active today than yesterday. I offered her water through the dropper and she only had a little before she was done (seems considerably less thirsty/more sated than yesterday). She still doesn't seem to be eating unless I force-feed and her eyes are a bit sunken still.

I'll make sure to remove her night lamp tonight and try to get her into the shower and I'll be getting a laying bin on Monday and trying to get her into the vet if it's not too expensive. I lost my job yesterday, so money is about to be really tight and the vet is going to be difficult to squeeze in on top of my own maternity dr bills.

Thanks everyone for your help. My fiance bought the chameleons on a whim but all the actual care after cage setup has been up to me and I'm feeling way out of my depth and overwhelmed, especially after we already lost Pascal. Any other suggestions on how to help Ellie?

 

[sharp229]

If the tail is necrotic I don't think there is much that can be done to save that part of it, but vets can usually give antibiotics and creams to help prevent secondary issues. It may not be related to the current problem, but it could be adding to the overall difficulties.

If her eyes are less sunken in after drinking that is a good sign, and I would make sure she continues to drink. I would say the best things you yourself could do for her at the moment are create a laying bin and try to follow this care sheet as closely as possible:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

However, if there are more significant issues than dehydration such as egg-binding or infection, you would need to see a vet since they can verify what is going on and prescribe any necessary medications or antibiotics.