High daytime humidity

[CasqueAbove]

More to this point...don’t veiled chameleons only survive for one season, maybe two in the wild? Well in captivity, even in an outdoor enclosure we’ve removed pretty much all natural causes of death, stress, and most disease. Maybe they are naturally less robust after around a year or so of age? It’s very interesting we can keep them “healthy” for 8 or more years in captivity, but are these goals realistic? Maybe optimal wild conditions aren’t optimal for longevity? Just food for thought.

I see what you are getting at, but I don’t think it is that straight forward.
For one in the wild there are a multitude of micro and macro environments to choose, so they would go where is best for them.
As for them dying at one or two seasons, is not due to their weakness. If you look at satellite imagery of the area. Yarim to Ibb is the area too look at. During the dry season there is nothing, very bare and exposed. Also at this time other predictors are hungry because much of their pray is gone. This coupled with the lack of insects at that time of year, means you better be able too maximize the good times if you hope to survive.

In fact only the ones that are best adapted to maximize their short time propagate.

Many animals we keep are like this, especially some fish. They have short wild lifespans, but can live long in captivity. This is because they are seasonal. But if kept in the right season they can live long.

All animals will be extremely adapted for their environment, they have to be. Life is too hard in the wild already.

 

[cyberlocc]

I am meaning higher humidity levels with misting and heat causes respiratory infection. Not just humidity and heat. When people are misting constantly when their cages are at their warmest.

Which is still not true. Complete and total fantasy.

We have already been over this. I think you were away at the time though .

Fun factiod heat + humidity is how you cure a Reptile RI . Ferrit recommended 5 degrees over normal basking with increased Humidity to cure RIs.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

 

[jamest0o0]

One thing I'd like to end on is... just 2 years or so ago, the advice regarding watering/humidity being thrown around here, from bill strand, on cham groups, etc was very different. Not blaming them of course... another example, when I started bio, there was like maybe 2 other regular posters on the forums doing it. People still warned of impaction/bacteria/mold/blahblah(and this wasn't even that long ago) and made it a big deal. Now everyone is seeing the benefits of a bio enclosure. A lot seems to change every year. I've learned to try and not take anything as a certainty. That's why I got a little iffy about saying veileds should have 30-50%. And with gaping, we don't even know if it is bad. Plenty of healthy chams do it. IME chams get restless and seek cool areas when uncomfortable, they don't just sit there. Mine that would gape would still seek out the basking. I think we see RIs cause gaping and automatically go 'oh that must be bad'... maybe it is, maybe it isn't IDK. Since veileds die due to the dried season, does it really help to lower their humidity? Maybe higher would benefit them even if it's not as natural? For humans, higher humidity has shown to have health benefits and reduce chance of illness by a pretty large amount. And most people have lower than 60% humidity in their home, so even if you measure say 70 in your cage from live plants and watering, that air will quickly exchange to the dryer air outside of the cage. You will get mold if your house is over 60% humidity so if that is the case, have fans or dehumidifiers running, I definitely agree with that. I run 3 large ones and my house is on the smaller side lol.

 

[Beman]

Which is still not true. Complete and total fantasy.

We have already been over this. I think you were away at the time though .

Fun factiod heat + humidity is how you cure a Reptile RI . Ferrit recommended 5 degrees over normal basking with increased Humidity to cure RIs.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

I will still follow the line of thinking that Bill Strand puts out there when it comes to naturalistic hydration... I am not seeing anything in that thread that says you should be misting constantly while running a basking fixture and that is what I am talking about... As I already said I am not saying it is just humidity and heat... But most of the newbies we get are consistently spraying their enclosures. So it is wet all the time and never drying out. Creating a bacteria playground. Which the cham is in turn breathing in and walking through... Misting creates humidity with the heat lamps but it also soaks the cage. In the wild it is natural humidity levels. Here it was 78% humidity outside yesterday... All day. through clouds and sun but no rain. Everything was dry.

So maybe it is the wording of humidity+heat= RI that is frustrating some.

If so maybe that is the topic...

 

[cyberlocc]

I will still follow the line of thinking that Bill Strand puts out there when it comes to naturalistic hydration... I am not seeing anything in that thread that says you should be misting constantly while running a basking fixture and that is what I am talking about... As I already said I am not saying it is just humidity and heat... But most of the newbies we get are consistently spraying their enclosures. So it is wet all the time and never drying out. Creating a bacteria playground. Which the cham is in turn breathing in and walking through... Misting creates humidity with the heat lamps but it also soaks the cage. In the wild it is natural humidity levels. Here it was 78% humidity outside yesterday... All day. through clouds and sun but no rain. Everything was dry.

So maybe it is the wording of humidity+heat= RI that is frustrating some.

If so maybe that is the topic...

Its not wetness that is a issue either though.

I am not a veilied keeper. Never have been, do not research veileds at all ect. So what I am about to say is only from a panther perspective.

Panthers, some live in/near the city's, and forest edge where its not quite but is still close to Rainforest, others live in flat out Rainforest depending on locale of course.

For the ones that live in Rainforest they have 25-28 rain days during the wet season. Now look at the rain patterns, its not hardcore monsoons for 3 hours and then nothing until tomorrow. Its constantly raining on and off. The surfaces are constantly wet.


Also James never said constant misting I am not even sure who would? If you mean short burst mists every 2 hours or 3, I dont see an issue with that either thats pretty natural rain like setup for Rainforests in Madgascar. Misting with a basking light on, has never and will not cause an RI.

Being that I have an enclosed cage, my cage is wet most of the day. There is some water almost at all times during the day, an hour before the next mist the water dries up. Never had an RI.

As to the natural humidity levels. Again panthers only. Malagasy Rainforests that panthers Reside and Parsons that James is framing from. Are 60-80%+ humidity even in the day, pretty much every day, they also get rain every single day.

Yes, raising humidity at night is a good idea fo combat water loss. However using misters during the day, which has been done for 40 years, is not causing issues. Bill and Petr know a good deal, and have alot of experience. However they are not gods and their ideas do not trump 40 years of thousands of keepers and breeders. Misting With a basking light on does not cause RIs, period.


Now then velieds do not live in the rainforest at all afaik. Their issue with humidity levels could cause issue. Staying out of that completely, but reading for the findings .

 

[Beman]

Its not wetness that is a issue either though.

I am not a veilied keeper. Never have been, do not research veileds at all ect. So what I am about to say is only from a panther perspective.

Panthers, some live in/near the city's, and forest edge where its not quite but is still close to Rainforest, others live in flat out Rainforest depending on locale of course.

For the ones that live in Rainforest they have 25-28 rain days during the wet season. Now look at the rain patterns, its not hardcore monsoons for 3 hours and then nothing until tomorrow. Its constantly raining on and off. The surfaces are constantly wet.


Also James never said constant misting I am not even sure who would? If you mean short burst mists every 2 hours or 3, I dont see an issue with that either thats pretty natural rain like setup for Rainforests in Madgascar. Misting with a basking light on, has never and will not cause an RI.

Being that I have an enclosed cage, my cage is wet most of the day. There is some water almost at all times during the day, an hour before the next mist the water dries up. Never had an RI.

As to the natural humidity levels. Again panthers only. Malagasy Rainforests that panthers Reside and Parsons that James is framing from. Are 60-80%+ humidity even in the day, pretty much every day, they also get rain every single day.

Yes, raising humidity at night is a good idea fo combat water loss. However using misters during the day, which has been done for 40 years, is not causing issues. Bill and Petr know a good deal, and have alot of experience. However they are not gods and their ideas do not trump 40 years of thousands of keepers and breeders. Misting With a basking light on does not cause RIs, period.


Now then velieds do not live in the rainforest at all afaik. Their issue with humidity levels could cause issue. Staying out of that completely, but reading for the findings .

No, exactly... I basically stay out of threads that are not veiled related. While I will jump in on some panther threads since the basic husbandry is the same with the exception of humidity levels needed for them. Even in those I do say that that the humidity level should be higher.

Where I do agree with the basking and misting part... Even in the wild when it rains the temps drop because the clouds cover the sun. In our cages it does not. So my set up is totally based off what I have learned from Bill Strand. Because it made very clear sense to me. When I joined the forum. There were hardly any helpful people that really wanted to make sure anyone had complete info. I found Bill's Podcasts and modeled everything from them. It works for my Veiled. But again this is the only hands on experience I have.

Maybe it is also the fact that there are so many artificial substances that are used in cages... They do not dry out properly... Can create foot issues.

Yes, rain in Madagascar is pretty consistent... But the panthers are not walking around on fake exo terra vines... They are in this huge bio active environment.

I honestly think it is the whole husbandry picture. Making sure everything is suited for the species specific needs. I think this is where things get jumbled up.

Personally and even though I do not have my cage set up in this manner. I think a properly done bio active enclosure with all real elements and plants is the best way to go. The cage is cleaning itself... You and @jamest0o0 really know your stuff with this area.

Anyways... I am rambling all over... I see both sides. I am not closed off to the 40 years of prior keepers... It just was not how I learned.

 

[jamest0o0]

I will still follow the line of thinking that Bill Strand puts out there when it comes to naturalistic hydration... I am not seeing anything in that thread that says you should be misting constantly while running a basking fixture and that is what I am talking about... As I already said I am not saying it is just humidity and heat... But most of the newbies we get are consistently spraying their enclosures. So it is wet all the time and never drying out. Creating a bacteria playground. Which the cham is in turn breathing in and walking through... Misting creates humidity with the heat lamps but it also soaks the cage. In the wild it is natural humidity levels. Here it was 78% humidity outside yesterday... All day. through clouds and sun but no rain. Everything was dry.

So maybe it is the wording of humidity+heat= RI that is frustrating some.

If so maybe that is the topic...

Rainforests are soaked constantly though. We just use this word bacteria without really knowing what it means. Which bacteria? Why does the dry season kill chams then, but not the wet? Do you think the physiology is so different among chams that some are entirely resistant to this mystery bacteria while others die of RI? I mean, maybe they are, but feels far fetched to me. Almost anyone here that I've seen get an RI was using a fogger. I don't know anyone that misted too much, but had otherwise good husbandry that got it. That's just facts. I'd love to see someone pull up threads of RI cases contradicting what I just said. Most seem to be coming from people that don't water enough, i don't see many newbies misting for 15+ minutes a day lol.

And regarding bill, that's my point. His line of thinking was different right before you joined the hobby... we were all doing the same thing as you are right now. We were saying oh let it dry out at night and high humidity during the day! Now it's flipped, but with some uncertainty. I'm not criticizing anyone's methods, only pointing out that we shouldn't be getting on people that have higher humidity levels but good ventilation(which I'm not saying you are beman, just a general forum trend lately). No one is telling you not to follow advice, but marrying ideas isn't beneficial IMO.

 

[Beman]

Rainforests are soaked constantly though. We just use this word bacteria without really knowing what it means. Which bacteria? Why does the dry season kill chams then? Do you think the physiology is so different among chams that some are entirely resistant to this mystery bacteria while others die of RI? I mean, maybe they are, but feels far fetched to me. Almost anyone here that I've seen get an RI was using a fogger. I don't know anyone that misted too much, but had otherwise good husbandry that got it. That's just facts. I'd love to see someone pull up threads of RI cases contradicting what I just said. Most seem to be coming from people that don't water enough, i don't see many newbies misting for 15+ minutes a day lol.

And regarding bill, that's my point. His line of thinking was different right before you joined the hobby... we were all doing the same thing as you are right now. We were saying oh let it dry out at night and high humidity during the day! Now it's flipped, but with some uncertainty. I'm not criticizing anyone's methods, only pointing out that we shouldn't be getting on people that have higher humidity levels but good ventilation(which I'm not saying you are beman, just a general forum trend lately). No one is telling you not to follow advice, but marrying ideas isn't beneficial IMO.

Yeah I dunno. If the issue is me saying heat + humidity= RI... I am happy to stop.

 

[jamest0o0]

There are definitely animals that don't benefit from humidity, but I have a hard time believing that a yemen oasis during the rainy season is only at 40% during the day. Just being around plants will have higher humidity, so they'd need to measure where it's at. If veileds were in dry deserts like some arid species, I could see... but being where they're from, idt a bump in humidity would hurt them. But idk

 

[jamest0o0]

Yeah I dunno. If the issue is me saying heat + humidity= RI... I am happy to stop.

Btw I'm just debating, not mad at you Becca! I just get in the heat of the conversation haha.

 

[Beman]

Btw I'm just debating, not mad at you Becca! I just get in the heat of the conversation haha.

Me too James... lol But seriously... If me saying that phrase is something of a debate. I am happy to leave it out. Again something I picked up in my early learning. Many others said it as well. And I can see what yall are saying... It is not specifically the humidity.

 

[jamest0o0]

Me too James... lol But seriously... If me saying that phrase is something of a debate. I am happy to leave it out. Again something I picked up in my early learning. Many others said it as well. And I can see what yall are saying... It is not specifically the humidity.

We talked about it yesterday, I don't see anything wrong with going for lower humidity. I just hesitate to tell someone having it a bit higher is a problem. But whatever, we both have good intentions and I think we're both taking good care of our animals. I think we got our points across and I also see where you're coming from.

Btw, not even saying heat+humidity doesn't equal RI. I'm just not certain that it does either. Haven't seen anything compelling to make me think it does.