High protein bug diets

[CasqueAbove]

@CasqueAbove unfortunately there are no studies at the data you seek, much to my dismay as well. My point on that particular topic is that the perception of it being "safe and natural" can lead to overuse and I've seen some problems occur a bit too coincidentally after starting bee pollen too many times for me not to at least scratch my head and wonder if there is a correlation. Especially in the US "safe and natural" tends to mean "use as much you want!" and I just want to raise the flag of awareness a little that we don't know the full relationship of how it is processed or even what it contains compared to natural pollen sources of their home range so using it in moderation is safer in my opinion. I broke down the math of what a bee can carry in pollen in relationship to how much the bees comprise natural diet to highlight that it is still a miniscule amount of pollen ingested even if it is a main feeder source so heavily using bee pollen is not consistent with what is happening in the wild. So if we're going to try to match nature we need to be aware of what nature actually is and be judicious about using it.

I would agree with this. Natural does not equal safe. My wife just went through a severe manic episode from being prescribed something that was "Natural and Safe"
So I here you on the over use. Why didn't you just explain it that way.
If we are to use it as it would be in nature, heavily coating would break this rule.

This now makes more sense. It is not bee pollen, but its misuse. In matching diets we should match quantities as well.

As for the over all knowledge of what nutrients and vitamins are use and how they are used by chameleons is still a work in progress.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

@CasqueAbove I believe that I did say that but if that was not conveyed well then I didn't do the best job of explaining my thought process so for that I apologize.

Because I’ve seen people dump in bee pollen for gutloading and literally coat crickets in it so they are yellow under the recommendation that it is natural and safe. So my concern is that it is being overused.

 

[jamest0o0]

Kaizen this may interest you... hope I'm allowed to link this, but I found this thread a couple years ago and it has some very insightful information.

https://www.roachforum.com/topic/68...ion-from-a-50-year-biohemistroach-researcher/

 

[Kaizen]

Just one more little thing to add here: Trying to replicate nature is an interesting project. However, I have noticed some proponents of replicating nature don’t always think critically about the consequences of their views. For instance, in nature, chameleons will be exposed to predators, a host of parasites/bacteria/viruses, and face hardships such as drought, famine, etc. Facing these challenges is entirely natural and contributes to a species’ evolutionary robustness. While all these items are natural, I’m not sure we ought to be replicating them in captivity. So, what parts of nature should we be replicating? The answer seems obvious until you consider that the obvious answer entails that we know better than the natural processes that have forged a particular species. In other words, either we subject our captive charges to a variety of environmental pressures such as disease, famine, etc., or else we accept that we’re not in the business of replicating nature (full stop), because replicating every aspect of nature is not in the best interest of any given individual. Instead, we’re in the business of maximizing the quality of our captive charges’ lives, and this means capitalizing on the benefits of nature, while keeping an open mind to the benefits of using unnatural means to ensure their well-being.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just one more little thing to add here: Trying to replicate nature is an interesting project. However, I have noticed some proponents of replicating nature don’t always think critically about the consequences of their views. For instance, in nature, chameleons will be exposed to predators, a host of parasites/bacteria/viruses, and face hardships such as drought, famine, etc. Facing these challenges is entirely natural and contributes to a species’ evolutionary robustness. While all these items are natural, I’m not sure we ought to be replicating them in captivity. So, what parts of nature should we be replicating? The answer seems obvious until you consider that the obvious answer entails that we know better than the natural processes that have forged a particular species. In other words, either we subject our captive charges to a variety of environmental pressures such as disease, famine, etc., or else we accept that we’re not in the business of replicating nature (full stop), because replicating every aspect of nature is not in the best interest of any given individual. Instead, we’re in the business of maximizing the quality of our captive charges’ lives, and this means capitalizing on the benefits of nature, while keeping an open mind to the benefits of using unnatural means to ensure their well-being.

ALL of this! Replicating nature is great when it is beneficial to our pets and is feasible. But unfortunately, being in captivity causes constraints and changes that sometimes limit our ability to do so and have to be taken into consideration. That means substitutions of feeders and gutloading sources because we physically don't have access to what they normally eat in their home range, etc.

 

[kinyonga]

Bee pollen...
"Extensive trials, in test tubes (in vitro) and in animals (in vivo), have failed to find significant benefits from bee pollen. A few in vitro studies with animal tissues have demonstrated protective effects from radiation damage. One study with pregnant rats showed improved maternal and fetal body weights and improved fetal survival when dams were supplemented with bee pollen. The majority of studies, however, show no benefits from supplemental bee pollen"...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/03MarDonoghue.html

 

[kinyonga]

Bee pollen...
"Interestingly and more apt considering keeping herps at the wrong humidity can cause kidney problems, patients with kidney insufficiency were fed bee pollen and showed great improvement"...
http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/beepollen.htm

"Overlooked and recent research of pollen protein content shows that pollen grains may contain over 60% protein, double the amount cited in some studies of pollen-feeding animals"....
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00984102

 

[Kaizen]

Ok, now you’re really asking a lot of me. Opposing articles? I’m blaming my inability to find time to do the dishes on you @kinyonga !

 

[kinyonga]

You have to do the dishes??? You have my sympathies...not...I do them every day!

Thinking is good for you!