High white orange veiled chameleon

[Bigsky]

True/false statement. Mutations are expressed more often when inbreeding. These genetic defects are dormant due to either recessive traits or are polymorphic. Typically, these dormant mutations will not be expressed as it requires both parents to carry the “defect”. Inbreeding increases your chance of mutation because both parent animals are more likely to carry an in expressed recessive gene. Albanism is a good example of this. For a breeder, this means expressed mutations may appear over less generations, costing less money and taking less time. The issues many have with this are the overall health of the offspring. Though they appear beautiful, they may have deminished health. I doubt little has been done by way of research in genetics for any reptile, chameleons in specific. Still, not saying I’m completely against it, but i would prefer the breeder try outcrossing sooner than later. This would result in the same mutations, more robust/healthy offspring, just over a longer timeline. Again, this is only an example for recessive genes. Other things may be expressed by continually breeding chameleons with certain valued traits though not related.

True. As I have stated before, inbreeding/backcrossing can result in expression of non-dominant genes. These recessive characteristics may be either beneficial or harmful.
Example: in humans, brown eyes are dominant. Somewhere, sometime, there was a mutation for blue eyes. This characteristic was recessive, and not expressed until two people, obviously related, produced the first blue eyed child.
There is a factor called highbred vigor in livestock. So, an angus x Hereford cross produces stronger calves than purebred.
Obviously, this example of inbreeding in chameleons has resulted in an interesting new strain that would not have occurred otherwise.
Possibly there may be negative effects also. We will see.

 

[Bigsky]

There's so much crazy variation going on with snake and bearded dragon morphs, that I have to believe someone somewhere has been keeping records of what kinds of problems are encountered with the inbreeding that has produced these morphs AND then hopefully someone else has gone on to establish best practices for out crossing and limits on inbreeding to keep the problems in check, as has been done for dogs, cats, etc. Is there a registry of reptile breeders like the CFA and whatever kennel clubs you have for dog and cat breeders? Is there something like that for cham breeders? Just curious.

I wonder how frequent sibling mating occurs in the wild, given the limited dispersal of chameleons. Are there any documented instances of weakened individuals as a result of backcrossing? I mean real cases, not what someone thinks or might have hear secondhand.

 

[Bigsky]

I wonder how frequent sibling mating occurs in the wild, given the limited dispersal of chameleons. Are there any documented instances of weakened individuals as a result of backcrossing? I mean real cases, not what someone thinks or might have hear secondhand.

Is there a geneticist on board? I have heard that genetic mutations occur once every 20,000 generations, whether we are talking about fruit flies, or whatever. That is how they can tell how long populations have been isolated- by genetic mapping to determine the number of mutations. I c an give you a reference where we used this methodology to identify species of wheat stem sawflies.

 

[Toothless the cham]

If your looking for a breeder to chime in I'll hit @Brodybreaux25

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Thanks but I’m not competent enough in this subject to add anything meaningful to the conversation.

 

[Goose502]

Never the less, this may be the most unique veiled chameleon I’ve ever seen.

 

[snitz427]

Absolutely gorgeous!

 

[Calummaty Jane]

True. As I have stated before, inbreeding/backcrossing can result in expression of non-dominant genes. These recessive characteristics may be either beneficial or harmful.
Example: in humans, brown eyes are dominant. Somewhere, sometime, there was a mutation for blue eyes. This characteristic was recessive, and not expressed until two people, obviously related, produced the first blue eyed child.
There is a factor called highbred vigor in livestock. So, an angus x Hereford cross produces stronger calves than purebred.
Obviously, this example of inbreeding in chameleons has resulted in an interesting new strain that would not have occurred otherwise.
Possibly there may be negative effects also. We will see.

I guess my question is less about "hidden" problems from inbreeding (so, unintentional promotion of harmful recessive genes un-related to the unique coloration that was intentionally promoted here), and more along the lines of, is albino/translucent coloration harmful to animals that need regular exposure to UV to live? Do translucent veiled have higher rates of skin disease?

 

[Graves923]

Its cool but I'm not a fan lol. I've always been more of a fan of High blues and yellows in veiled. Still cool none the less. This might be the start of a new color morph of veileds if you can get the gene to become dominant. It'll be interesting to see how this blood line changes through the generations.

 

[Goose502]

This may be a stupid question, but I cannot see the eye too well, is this a possible T+ albino?

 

[nickyal]

Eye shot

 

[Goose502]

Hmm, I can’t rule out albanism. Hopefully that’s what it is. That’s an easy recessive trait to secure.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Its cool but I'm not a fan lol. I've always been more of a fan of High blues and yellows in veiled. Still cool none the less. This might be the start of a new color morph of veileds if you can get the gene to become dominant. It'll be interesting to see how this blood line changes through the generations.

Finally! I thought I was the only one here that doesn’t get it!

 

[jamest0o0]

Finally! I thought I was the only one here that doesn’t get it!

Personally I just like bright orange on a chameleon. Not a fan of the translucents though

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Personally I just like bright orange on a chameleon. Not a fan of the translucents though

I’m not trying to rain on the OPs parade, the orange is beautiful. It’s the whole translucent/pie bald thing I don’t get!

 

[Darthroastcoffee]

I much rather put my time and money with a breeder that can tell me lineage without inbreeding. Inbreeding is a lazy excuse for not spending the time and money in your breeding projects. Or maybe you just love the color, But give no care to the harm it may bring or may not bring, But to take that chance would just be selfish.

 

[jamest0o0]

I’m not trying to rain on the OPs parade, the orange is beautiful. It’s the whole translucent/pie bald thing I don’t get!

Totally agree

 

[Calypratus]

I personally think the translucent colors look best on blue or Green veiled. Either way that veiled is stunning!

 

[SmithSe]

I'm with @Goose502 on this one. The sheer lack of green or teal pigment makes me think albinism is a possibility, though I'm not sure how prominent red irises would be in an albino chameleon.

 

[Goose502]

I'm with @Goose502 on this one. The sheer lack of green or teal pigment makes me think albinism is a possibility, though I'm not sure how prominent red irises would be in an albino chameleon.

It’s my understanding that a T+ albino would not have red eyes, though a T- would. I don’t totally understand that mechanism, but for some reason my gut leads me to believe it’s an albino.