Hipproblem: Hipbone pointing up - Advice?

[aeolis23]

Anyone who could give some advice about her hips? No idea how this happened and I've never seen it before. She was with the vet for 3 week while I was on holidays, and he also doesn't know what caused this. Her overall health seems to go slightly down for a while (4-5 weeks?). She's still using her legs, she doesn't seem bothered by it.

She's a 14 months old R. brevicaudatus, in my care for 13 months. She has always been doing great, until this last month. She was housed together with a female that passed away 3 weeks ago, probably from lingering eyeproblems.

Ask away if you need more info.

Her weight curve

 

[jajeanpierre]

I think you are seeing muscle wastage around the pelvis. That area is usually covered by muscles and is smooth, so you don't even notice that part of the pelvis (illium). Have a look at a chameleon skeleton.

http://andikfar.cgsociety.org/art/chameleon-maya-skeleton-rat-realistic-3d-1145404/

I have one that is very similar to yours. I have no idea how old he is (wild caught) but I wonder if he is just very old. I've had mine seen by a vet with no answer as to what is going on. I did not x-ray. Mine has had some issues around the pelvic area, possibly an abscess or injury, that my vet and I have dealt with. We don't know if that is related to whatever is going on with his pelvis.

If you do find anything, please let me know.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Well that's weird looking...I can't say I've seen that kind of problem before! It looks like the skin got tucked into the pelvis somehow. That's the best way I can describe it. Even muscle loss shouldn't cause it to have that kind of tucked in appearance, and the rest of the body doesn't look as cachectic (muscle loss) or emaciated. If it is focal muscle loss there probably isn't anything that will fix it, and it all but impossible to explain it in an animal that small. It sounds like she's doing well, which is good. I might even start by trying to hydrate that area (just a good misting even) and very gently massage that area and see if the skin kind of smooths back out. Not very scientific but that's the best I can offer!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Well that's weird looking...I can't say I've seen that kind of problem before! It looks like the skin got tucked into the pelvis somehow. That's the best way I can describe it. Even muscle loss shouldn't cause it to have that kind of tucked in appearance, and the rest of the body doesn't look as cachectic (muscle loss) or emaciated. If it is focal muscle loss there probably isn't anything that will fix it, and it all but impossible to explain it in an animal that small. It sounds like she's doing well, which is good. I might even start by trying to hydrate that area (just a good misting even) and very gently massage that area and see if the skin kind of smooths back out. Not very scientific but that's the best I can offer!

With my boy, it seems as if the ligaments to attach the ilium to the spine are very loose, mostly on one side. I would say he has almost no muscle mass anywhere. His skin also gets caught between the ilium like the little pygmy. I don't think my boy is dehydrated, but his skin is very loose and wrinkly. At one point he had really bad edema for months and months and was extremely bloated. He's a quad, which has big puffy legs anyway, so if they are atrophied, I would expect the skin to be saggy. This is the import my vet and I affectionately refer to as "He Who Would Not Die" because he has had so many crises but always recovered from the brink of death. He's got a lot going on that we don't know about. We are both interested in his necropsy because we have our suspicions about what we will find.

The worst side is the left side.

 

[aeolis23]

Thanks!

From what I understand, this is more or less the same kind of explanation my vet is thinking about. But if so, we still haven't found what's causing this tissue wastage.
The vet didn't find eggs in her laying bin after her 3 weeks stay and she ate well. We don't know yet if she is gravid, but I'm keeping an eye on her and I will weigh her again soon to check if she is going down or not. Her eyes seem to be sunken in too much to my opinion, but we already gave her subcutaneous fluid twice and she gets sprayed heavily once a day as usual. Her urates are white and faeces are good.

If more ideas pop into your heads, let me know.
I'll give you an update about her in a few days.
Fingers crossed!

PS. Other people have been replying to my question on facebook. You can read their ideas here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/518076228236475/permalink/1238595549517869/

 

[aeolis23]

I think you are seeing muscle wastage around the pelvis. That area is usually covered by muscles and is s

What exactly do you expect to find with the necropsy? Could you tell me more about his edema, where did he have it, any pictures?

 

[jajeanpierre]

What exactly do you expect to find with the necropsy? Could you tell me more about his edema, where did he have it, any pictures?

"He Who Would Not Die" has had all kinds of different health problems. He's a wild caught, imported as an adult in December 2014. He was emaciated when I bought him. His right hind leg became very swollen and caused him a lot of pain soon after purchase. Xrays were inconclusive and of such poor quality to be of little use. He had so many health problems. His parasite load was massive. Just getting them under control almost killed him. Then he seemed to develop what the vet thought were abscesses. He was in and out of the vet's regularly. The vet believed that there was an infection somewhere in his body that was draining to his hind leg and then to the other places that seemed to develop an abscess. She would have loved to open him up and clean everything up but she knew that in itself would kill him so we treated him with Baytril as needed. The lumps disappeared and he regained his health. He developed edema that was really bad--he was positively bloated with his eyes bugging out and he stayed that way for months. No matter what I did, it didn't resolve and then one day it did. It just went away. As soon as the edema resolved, he tried to die of some kind of respiratory issue. The vet did not believe he had any kind of a respiratory infection. He would be okay and then suddenly, he would collapse. It would be a sudden episode. He would become limp and basically almost pass out as he struggled to breathe. I would have to set him somewhere to recover and then he would be fine. He was in and out of the vets over this. The vet believed it was not an infection in the lungs, but it was obvious he was unable to get enough oxygen. Just the stress of her looking at him would put him into a mild respiratory distress. She pointed out that his respiratory function was so close to being unable to support him that just the stress would put him into an oxygen deficit.. She was't sure if there was a mass in his body or lungs. There was the possibility of lung worms since she had already done a necropsy of a baby from the same exporter and found three lungworms about an inch and a half long in the destroyed lungs of a 14g baby who died of acute respiratory failure. There was also the nagging question of whether he had an abscess somewhere in his body. I made an appointment to euthanize and then got a phone call from another quad breeder who said she had something similar--her vet insisted that it was definitely not a respiratory infection but she though maybe it was. We decided to try a round of Baytril--euthanasia is forever, we could always do it later. He slowly recovered. Soon after the edema went away, I noticed the hip joint. Perhaps he tore ligaments when he fell during one of his fainting episodes.

You can see why we are so interested in his necropsy. Is it lung worms he is able to cope with? Is it an abscess that he has successfully walled off? Is it some other mass?

He is one of my favorite animals. I adore him and his incredible strength. My vet marvels that he continues to live. He truly is a survivor. My only regret is I have never been able to get a breeding from him.

 

[aeolis23]

Unfortunately my girl died during the night...

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm sorry. Are you going to have the vet do a necropsy?

 

[aeolis23]

If it is possible, I definitely will. But today it's saturday, so lots of info will be lost by the time she will be examined I guess.
She is now in the fridge, but I'll move her to the freezer later today.

 

[jajeanpierre]

If it is possible, I definitely will. But today it's saturday, so lots of info will be lost by the time she will be examined I guess.
She is now in the fridge, but I'll move her to the freezer later today.

DO NOT PUT HER IN THE FREEZER!!! The fridge is fine. The freezer will destroy tissues at a cellular level as water freezes inside the cells. Many autopsies on people aren't done for days after death.

 

[aeolis23]

Message received! She stayes in the fridge!

 

[Millz&Jukka]

I'm sorry for your loss <3

 

[jajeanpierre]

Message received! She stayes in the fridge!

I would be really interested to hear what your vet says. I hope he doesn't even charge you since it happened at his clinic and she declined and died there after.

I read through the fb messages and was surprised to see so many. I wonder if it is an injury from falling on a hard floor. Your girl had it on both sides, so that doesn't seem plausible. My boy has it more on one side than the other, but the other side isn't perfect.

Again, sorry for your loss.

Could it have just been old age? Some animals are perfectly healthy and then they just up and die basically because they are old. Other animals linger. I think German Shepherd Dogs pretty much have a clock in them and just die at about 10 years. My GSD was out jogging with my husband and collapsed suddenly with no warning. He was dead from cancer of the spleen within a few months even with surgery. I've had other dogs that just won't die and linger in poor health (but not suffering) for years. There is some interesting studies being done on fruit flies' "death spiral." The "death spriral" is when the fruit fly is exhibiting certain things like not laying many eggs and lying on their backs. They found that when certain things happened, the animal would die so many days later. They are trying to relate it to people's "death spiral" when all kinds of systems fail on old people in the months or years before they die. This is a new way of thinking of age-related death in old people--rather than the multiple failures causing their death, they are questioning if the multiple failures are the symptom of a dying person. It's a subtle difference.

 

[aeolis23]

I don't think it's age, as she was only 14 months old. Pygmies don't get old, but 14 months would still be quite young just to die of age.
Brevicaudatus should go up to 2 - 3 years if everything goes well, I recently even heard about 4 and 5 years, so I guess she must have become sick by something.

If she has fallen and broken her hip, she probably wouldn't be using her legs anymore?

I will let you know if something comes out of the necropsy, but the examination will only be in 2 days.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I don't think it's age, as she was only 14 months old. Pygmies don't get old, but 14 months would still be quite young just to die of age.
Brevicaudatus should go up to 2 - 3 years if everything goes well, I recently even heard about 4 and 5 years, so I guess she must have become sick by something.

If she has fallen and broken her hip, she probably wouldn't be using her legs anymore?

I will let you know if something comes out of the necropsy, but the examination will only be in 2 days.

Not a fracture, more a sprain/tear of the ligaments that keep the top of the hip (the ilium) tight against the spine. Did you look at the link to the skeleton of the chameleon so you will have a better understanding of the structure of the pelvis. Horses bang that part of their hips all the time in stall doors and you can see a deviation in the level of the point of their hips.

Or that whole area just atrophied, but why? My quad might be old and he has been unwell since import and has had something really wrong with one of his legs. He might simply be weak from either old age or poor health or both.

It is funny that it is both sides of your girl and appeared so suddenly. If 2-3 years is a somewhat normal lifespan, maybe in some cases 14 months could be considered old. (Are you sure of her age?) I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas. Keep me posted. Again, sorry for your loss.

 

[aeolis23]

If that happens, wouldn't her hips go down insead of up? To me it looks like the hips are pretty tight against her spine?

Anyway, I'm just going to wait if the autopsy brings up anything. I guess it's no use to keep guessing without further examination.

 

[jajeanpierre]

If that happens, wouldn't her hips go down insead of up? To me it looks like the hips are pretty tight against her spine?

Anyway, I'm just going to wait if the autopsy brings up anything. I guess it's no use to keep guessing without further examination.

Her skin is between the wing of her hips and the rest of her body. There shouldn't be any room for the skin to slip in. Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Remkon]

I'm sorry for your loss

 

[aeolis23]

Autopsy:
Egg bound
Enlarged kidneys (kidney failure)
The hips were probably caused by muscle atrophy.

Difficult to know what's cause and effect.
Probably the combination killed her.