HOLY CRAP SO MANY EGGS
- Thread starter charlotteclaraschameleon
- Start date
charlotteclaraschameleon
Member
She's looking great today! I have to be careful and only mist her head and the wall of the plastic crate she's in for recovery so she can lick it off (have to be very careful not to get her stitches wet) - she's already acting like her normal self, looking at me like "why am I in this container? I'd like to be on my tree now" - and I'm not supposed to feed her today or tomorrow. The vet gave me antibiotics and pain killers for her I'll have to give her as shots in her arm for the next week - I am just SO HAPPY to have made it through this with Moody alive and well <3 When I got a chameleon a year ago I had NO IDEA how attached and in love I would fall with the little thing!
*** ALSO, just a helpful little tidbit if anyone needs emergency vet care but can't swallow a thousand dollar vet bill (cough *me* cough), theres this amazing company called CreditCare that approves you instantly and you can use it at pretty much all Veterinary and (Human) Health Offices and Doctors! I've seen a lot of posts on here with people hesitant to take their babies to the vet because of the bill, which I of course understand, but they are your responsibility to care for and there are awesome companies like this one to help you !!! ***
*** ALSO, just a helpful little tidbit if anyone needs emergency vet care but can't swallow a thousand dollar vet bill (cough *me* cough), theres this amazing company called CreditCare that approves you instantly and you can use it at pretty much all Veterinary and (Human) Health Offices and Doctors! I've seen a lot of posts on here with people hesitant to take their babies to the vet because of the bill, which I of course understand, but they are your responsibility to care for and there are awesome companies like this one to help you !!! ***
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
I really glad to hear that she's doing well. They do have a way of getting into your heart really fast.
Well said about the vet care and Credit Care. I wish everyone would take respossiable for all their pets.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
That's not been my experience, JannB. An Oxytocin shot should get a response immediately, just ask any woman who has had her labor induced. I've had a female finish laying her clutch before I started my car in the vet's parking lot.
If you are finding it takes several shots and several days I wonder if you are giving her oxytocin before she is ready to deliver.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
JannB, an oxytocin shot causes immediate contractions. It is possible your vet is administering very low levels to move things along slowly, but if a vet gives a therapeutic dose of oxytocin (which, by the way they really don't know what that dose is) then hard labor should start immediately. If eggs in the oviduct are not expelled with the administration of oxytocin and the onset of hard labor, then there is usually a blockage and the continued administration of oxytocin will rupture the oviduct (uterus), rupture eggs or cause hemorrhage and possibly death.
Sometimes a mammalian uterus can be stretched so thin by a large number/size of fetuses that it will not be able to contract. I would expect the same thing to happen with chameleons. I believe sometimes all the oxytocin in the world will not stimulate that uterus to contract with enough force to expel the eggs.
Isn't your vet Dr. D. R. Mader? In his own veterinary text book, REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY, under the chapter Dystocias, there is discussion of a second dose 20 to 60 minutes after the first dose at 50% to 100% of the original dose. There is no reference to giving any more oxytocin. In fact, the author states that it should not be given to an animal that is actively contracting. The author of the chapter found that the effectiveness was best if given within 48 hours of the onset of dystocia.
I'm not disputing that Dr. Mader is giving your chameleons one of the posterior pituitary hormones (oxytocin being one) multiple times a day over several days but that is not the standard treatment for dystocia. I wonder if he is doing research, perhaps with arginine vasotocin.
It is very dangerous to advise pet owners to follow protocols that are not considered standard treatment, especially when so few vets have any experience with reptiles. A vet will do what a client tells them to do, even if it goes against the vet's best medical advice. I worry after reading your post above that a well-meaning owner will over ride their vet and insist their chameleon be repeatedly given oxytocin even when it is contraindicated by all current veterinary practices. I have seen people come on this forum questioning their vets' treatment, taking advice from anonymous lay people on the internet rather than their own vet who actually graduated from veterinary school. Because you are so respected on this forum, your advice is far reaching and it imperative that your advice be spot on. I hope @ferretinmyshoes will comment on this because dystocia is such a common and life-threatening problem for female chameleons. I believe dystocia--the inability to lay their eggs--is a problem every single female veiled will experience during her life and it usually results in her death. That is why it is so important to get the best information to owners.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
With my 12 years experience oxytocin doesn't work at all on reptiles or used over a longer period of time with a higher dosage than in the book. Anytime we have ever used it except once it was under strict vet orders or either at the vets. Once I used Chuck G's method on a female parsons he gave me when my vet was at my house. This was Chucks method he posted on the forums years ago. After using his method and increasing the dose every 6 hours for three days she was still unable to lay and needed surgery.
It's always better to let them go through the process on their own but if they can't or won't lay them, you will lose her.
If your vet is unfamiliar with this I can offer what I do to try and save her.
You will need 2 things from the vet or he can do the procedure and charge you.
If you are capable and willing to inject your chameleon he should just charge you for the meds.
You will need 0.1 cc of Oxytocin, which he can preload a syringe for you.
This is based on a body weight of 175-250 gms. If it's different we can adjust.
You will need 1cc of a Dextrose and Sodium Chloride solution. Vets have this.
It's a 2.5% Dextrose and 0.45% Sodium Chloride solution. He can preload a syringe with this as well.
The solution is used as subcutaneous fluids that you will inject directly under the skin creating a bubble. You will then inject the Oxytocin directly into the bubble so it is slowly released into the system.
You will need a fine needle gauge to do this.
I am 15 for 15 saving my Parsonii and Deremensis using this procedure.
I am willing to talk you through this over the phone if you need to. 410 251 6237.
Hopefully I have typed all this for nothing and she has already layed them.
I am in no way condoning anyone trying this on their own without proper vet help. This is what has worked for me in past.
It's always better to let them go through the process on their own but if they can't or won't lay them, you will lose her.
If your vet is unfamiliar with this I can offer what I do to try and save her.
You will need 2 things from the vet or he can do the procedure and charge you.
If you are capable and willing to inject your chameleon he should just charge you for the meds.
You will need 0.1 cc of Oxytocin, which he can preload a syringe for you.
This is based on a body weight of 175-250 gms. If it's different we can adjust.
You will need 1cc of a Dextrose and Sodium Chloride solution. Vets have this.
It's a 2.5% Dextrose and 0.45% Sodium Chloride solution. He can preload a syringe with this as well.
The solution is used as subcutaneous fluids that you will inject directly under the skin creating a bubble. You will then inject the Oxytocin directly into the bubble so it is slowly released into the system.
You will need a fine needle gauge to do this.
I am 15 for 15 saving my Parsonii and Deremensis using this procedure.
I am willing to talk you through this over the phone if you need to. 410 251 6237.
Hopefully I have typed all this for nothing and she has already layed them.
I am in no way condoning anyone trying this on their own without proper vet help. This is what has worked for me in past.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
With my 12 years experience oxytocin doesn't work at all on reptiles or used over a longer period of time with a higher dosage than in the book. Anytime we have ever used it except once it was under strict vet orders or either at the vets. Once I used Chuck G's method on a female parsons he gave me when my vet was at my house. This was Chucks method he posted on the forums years ago. After using his method and increasing the dose every 6 hours for three days she was still unable to lay and needed surgery.
It's always better to let them go through the process on their own but if they can't or won't lay them, you will lose her.
If your vet is unfamiliar with this I can offer what I do to try and save her.
You will need 2 things from the vet or he can do the procedure and charge you.
If you are capable and willing to inject your chameleon he should just charge you for the meds.
You will need 0.1 cc of Oxytocin, which he can preload a syringe for you.
This is based on a body weight of 175-250 gms. If it's different we can adjust.
You will need 1cc of a Dextrose and Sodium Chloride solution. Vets have this.
It's a 2.5% Dextrose and 0.45% Sodium Chloride solution. He can preload a syringe with this as well.
The solution is used as subcutaneous fluids that you will inject directly under the skin creating a bubble. You will then inject the Oxytocin directly into the bubble so it is slowly released into the system.
You will need a fine needle gauge to do this.
I am 15 for 15 saving my Parsonii and Deremensis using this procedure.
I am willing to talk you through this over the phone if you need to. 410 251 6237.
Hopefully I have typed all this for nothing and she has already layed them.
I am in no way condoning anyone trying this on their own without proper vet help. This is what has worked for me in past.
JannB, you seem to be contradicting yourself from your previous posts. Please clarify.
Mader's text book states that 50% of snakes respond to oxytocin and lizards respond slightly better which belies your opening statement in your post, although that sentence is extremely confusing and you might be trying to get across a point that I completely missed.
doto
Member
Hi jajeanpierre,
For my own reference would you mind letting me know which of the text books you are referencing please? I have found these on amazon and I'm not sure if it's one of these or a different one all together.
Thanks
Reptile Medicine and Surgery - 2nd edition
https://www.amazon.ca/Reptile-Medicine-Surgery-Stephen-BVetMed/dp/072169327X
Current Therapy in Reptile Medicine and Surgery
https://www.amazon.ca/Current-Therapy-Reptile-Medicine-Surgery/dp/1455708933
For my own reference would you mind letting me know which of the text books you are referencing please? I have found these on amazon and I'm not sure if it's one of these or a different one all together.
Thanks
Reptile Medicine and Surgery - 2nd edition
https://www.amazon.ca/Reptile-Medicine-Surgery-Stephen-BVetMed/dp/072169327X
Current Therapy in Reptile Medicine and Surgery
https://www.amazon.ca/Current-Therapy-Reptile-Medicine-Surgery/dp/1455708933
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Dr. Mader has changed many things since he wrote the books especially 1 and 2. Not only medications but even the technics he uses during surgery. He learns more and updates how he does things all the time. With my females oxytocin has always been given for days and allot of times it does not work with my girls, my daughters females and my friends females. It may work better in other lizards. Dr. Mader sees allot of iguanas because there's so many of them around his practice. Three out of seven of my girls required surgery after oxytocin and another one passed before surgery.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
The first book you looked at but the second edition. REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY, Second Edition, Mader.
There is no standard protocol for oxytocin. Even Dr. Mader prefers using a higher dose in clinical practice than he himself published. It is recommended by most board certified reptile veterinarians (a very small and elite group) to start at lower doses then give subsequent doses either at the same dose or at increasing doses, not decreasing. Some vets prefer to do it every 2 hours, some every 6 hours, some once a day for several days, etc. There is huge variability, and species differences are part of that variability. It is also based on experience and research as it becomes available. There are few veterinary reptile texts published so these protocols are not readily found by public. But we have forums of our own for only veterinarians to discuss protocols and experiences to advance medicine without having to wait for published texts/articles. I dose oxytocin differently for chameleons than for box turtles based on my experiences with those species for example. It takes several hours for box turtles to start contracting whereas chameleons may be immediate or take several hours too.
Oxytocin is a mammalian hormone so it does not work as well in reptiles even close to as well in mammals. It's not even a fair comparison in most cases. Even given at the perfect time it may not have any effect. But chelonians respond to it most reliably, lizards next (and some species better than others), and snakes the least. Arginine vasotocin is a closer analogue to reptile hormones but not clinically available for use.
Oxytocin is a mammalian hormone so it does not work as well in reptiles even close to as well in mammals. It's not even a fair comparison in most cases. Even given at the perfect time it may not have any effect. But chelonians respond to it most reliably, lizards next (and some species better than others), and snakes the least. Arginine vasotocin is a closer analogue to reptile hormones but not clinically available for use.
