Hornworm Help, Please

[AESara]

I was given some free hornworms at a local nursery today. Only one is small enough for Napoleon to eat, and I don't want to give it to him because they've been eating tomato leaves.

I'm wondering if anyone has tips on:
~how to house the worms and eventually moths
~how to encourage breeding in captivity
~anything they can eat besides tomato or tomato leaves (or if chow is the only option)

I have a tomato plant outside so if it seems like something I can't afford, I'll just set them free on it.

 

[Syn]

They will eat mulberry leaves won't they?

If not some bell peppers will hold them over until you get chow.

Don't set them free. They are a pest.

 

[AESara]

Ok, no setting them free then. I figured it wouldn't be a big deal since the nursery has been keeping them and setting the moths free.

Anyway, about how long should I have them eating bell peppers before the small one would be edible? I don't mind if you say I'll have to wait for them to breed.

 

[Syn]

They are incredibly destructive. They are probably doing it to harvest them? Unsure.

Bell peppers are not a permanent food for them, at least... it wasn't for the ones I had. You need the chow.

 

[AESara]

Oh yeah, that's fine. I can get the chow, I just wondered how long it might take for the small one to be edible for my cham after it starts eating something besides tomato leaves, assuming it doesn't get too big by then.

I'm also open to sending the worms to someone who already breeds them, since they were free and I know they can be pretty expensive.

 

[Syn]

Unfortunately I don't know since I never feed WC. Try using the search?

 

[AESara]

I tried the search but wasn't finding anything about it. Maybe I was skimming too much I used it to find some info about housing though.

 

[AESara]

I think I'll just put them in the freezer. There aren't many of them and they were free, after all. I can't find anything about them becoming safe to eat with time eating safe plants, so I'm not going to risk it.

 

[Syn]

You could always give them back, or wait until someone with the right answer posts.

 

[AESara]

Yeah, my plan is to wait overnight. Thanks.

 

[ladysilkworm]

I do not think it is a good idea to set them free, because honestly they are pests.

however, they do eat mulberry chow and mulberry leaves, as well as tomatoes, cucumbers, tomato leaves etc. They do not eat melon leaves even though the plants are in the same family, because the melon leaves have thorns on them. Mulberry Farms sell their hornworm pods with mulberry chow in them, and apparently they do very well. They are also green, not teal. Green is the normal color that they have, due to the cholorphyll content in the leaves. Chow is NOT made of any green plant material but instead consists mostly bran, this explains why the horns are teal colored.

THey are destructive because honestly, they do eat pretty much everything and thrive on it. They will destroy a tomato plant over night.

As for tomato plants being toxic, I really doubt that it is just a rumor, or a scare tactic by the horn breeders to get you to buy their chow. If you search more on this topic you will find several members have fed horns that were raised on tomato plants and every one of their pets are fine.

I had horns that I fed on leaves, and in advertently bought in some parasites that cocooned on the body of the worms and killed them. So, I guess if you opt for clean, unadulterated horns, chow is the best method.

Depending on your supplier, a good, conscientious breeder would gut load the chow with multivitamins. On the other hand, I know someone who raises horns on MASHED POTATOES... LOL.

 

[Syn]

As for tomato plants being toxic, I really doubt that it is just a rumor, or a scare tactic by the horn breeders to get you to buy their chow. If you search more on this topic you will find several members have fed horns that were raised on tomato plants and every one of their pets are fine.

Please link me to your sources. I'd like to read up on this.

 

[ladysilkworm]

Please link me to your sources. I'd like to read up on this.

I tried to do a search but there is just too many.

It was an older post that came up on the bottom, and here is what I remembered:

A person got some horns from an educational place or somewhere, maybe a neighbor, and they were raised on tomato plants. She didn't know about 'toxicity' and fed them to her chams.. nothing happened. And about 2-3 posters followed suit with feeding them these and nothing happened. I read that just last night or two nights ago.

It's not that I am saying that hornworm chow providers are bad, I think the problem really lies in the wasps. Like I did, I gave them tomato leaves and the last two got infested with wasp cocoons and died.. it's more like the parasites that are the issues, I think.

Just like I think the silkworm suppliers ask you to form the chow and crate it, I don't form nor crate my chow, and I make my chow a little bit runnier and I don't have to worry about adding too much water or too less. It doesnt hurt the silkworms, in fact, it is better for the kegos to get more moisture..

Everyone has said tomato plants are toxic, and some ppl have unknowingingly fed the tainted ones.. but of course no one has come up to say that they are indeed toxic and killed their chams.. but of course, no one wants to try either ! Honestly, neither would I. But I am curious about the validity of such claims though...

 

[Syn]

I am looking for a direct link, not a second hand explanation.

You are even curious to the validity yet you claim it is "a scare tactic by the horn breeders to get you to buy their chow"...

Which is it? Just send me a few links. If there are that many it shouldn't be too hard to send one or two.

 

[ladysilkworm]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/tomatoes-oh-crap-21605/index2.html

does that link work?

The closest thread I can find right now is the above one. The truth of the toxicity is rather ambiguous and really isn't all that black and white. But better safe than sorry. Still, in my mind, I am doubtful.

It has been stated to prevent calcium absorption and may cause bowel discomfort, too much of anything acidic is not good.

However, I use to feed tomatoes daily to my sugar gliders (because we get free salads at work), and suggies get less calcium than chams because they sleep during the day. I do try dusting their food but the powder don't really stick.

My suggies were perfectly fine and gave me 7 joeys in 1.5 year..so, the tomatoes definitely were not killing them. They liked it more than they liked the cucumbers.

 

[Syn]

You're comparing a mammal to a reptile.

How much experience do you have with reptiles if any? Just out of curiosity.

Sorry for the thread derail, but you seem to offer a lot of information and I just want to know where it comes from.

EDIT:

They are not "Toxic" they have really high levels of Vit A in them. The could potentially be dangerous if enough was consumed.

Thats why its not good to feed hornworms to Chams that have been feeding on Tomato plants.

Very same thread you linked me to.

 

[AESara]

No problem Syn, I'm interested too.

 

[ladysilkworm]

I searched high and low but could not find that thread I read. Most of them are warnings against tomato plants.

Vitamins are toxic if you consume too much of them. Too little vitamins C gives you scurvy, too much vitamin A gives you hair loss and anemia. Too much floride gives you other problems.

I am not here to say who is right or wrong or if I want to come and defend myself for any claims I have made.. I don't think I have made any claims. I just find it dubious that they are indeed toxic. However, if a horn eats tomato plants all its life, it is bound that there is a considerable concentration of the the things NOT good for a cham and they are listed as oxalic acid that act as calcium blockers. But I don't think feeding one or two horns fed strictly on tomatoe plants are going to keel them over.

Toxicity sounds like poison. Poison evokes acute reaction. Vitamin toxicity is a chronic condition. If I had a cham, I would feed it one right now just to test it out.. .. but yes you are right, I don't have one, not for now anyway. I am confident that if I feed him one now he won't croak right away.. but knowing that these plants are calcium blockers then it wouldn't be sensible to feed them horns fed on leaves every day. It defeats the purpose of dusting, right? To sum it up, it may just be counter-productive.

Just my hunch.

 

[Syn]

Now you are comparing humans to reptiles...

You don't own a chameleon, and it sounds like you have not kept any reptiles?
It just doesn't make sense, I'm sorry.

Why not back up your statements with facts? Sources? Threads? Not second-hand summaries of what you think you've heard...

ETA:
My intentions are simply to make sure people put some thought into feeding off horn worms that are wild caught before offering them to chameleons.
Why risk it? There's no reason. How would you feel if someone's chameleon died because they followed your advice?... I guess that's what I'm trying to get at.

 

[ladysilkworm]

Now you are comparing humans to reptiles...

You don't own a chameleon, and it sounds like you have not kept any reptiles?
It just doesn't make sense, I'm sorry.

Why not back up your statements with facts? Sources? Threads? Not second-hand summaries of what you think you've heard...

Ok. you don't have to buy in on what I believe... you are sounding very personal about it. Even alot of the threads here don't have a lot of stats to back it up. Perhaps the issue here lies in that I don't own any chams and I have no biz being on this forum. The thread that I did post mention reference to classifying tomato plants are toxic did not have any research to back it up. I can only say common sense tells me that a few horns won't kill them right off. Exclusive consumption will surely make the chams weak from lack of calcium intake. You don't have to believe in what I think. To me, it is quite natural to make this "assumption". As for the nutritional content of tomatoes, one can easily google them under food that act as calcium blockers, and one can draw his or her own conclusions.

http://www.vitaminstohealth.com/calcium-supplement.html

one poster on the thread did list oxalic and phytic acid being ca inhibitors. I apologize if I offended you in anyway, I certainly was not trying to attack your believes in any personal way.

I have not said anything definitive. I am not here to make enemies.


Perhaps the issue lies in the definition of toxicity.. whether it is acute or chronic. Cyanide ingestion kills anything instantly. Then, mercury poison happens slowly.. so, don't eat too much deep sea fish. I guess at this point I should just quit. Sorry about your thread Liet.

edit: I guess I have done enough research on my own to conclude DONT FEED YOUR CHAMS WILD CAUGHT HORN WORMS, for a more logical reason that I have discovered, IMO. You're right. I don't want to mislead ppl and say WC horns are safe. I wouldn't feed it off because I am personally made aware of parasites.