how best to force feed?

[sandrachameleon]

currently looking after a very small juvi panther chameleon with MBD. He is unable to catch food for himself due to his poor motor control and reduced ability to shoot and retract tongue. He manages to grab very small butterworms if I cool (slow) them and put them immediately in front of him. It takes him forever to get just one. This is the only prey he seems capable of getting for himself. And his jaw is soft so he cant chew, so if I dont puncture the worms well I think they would pass undigested. PUncturing the worm means it doesnt live long, which means it could die well before he manages to eat it.

Obviously a tiny butterworm or two a day is not enough anyhow.

With a previous special needs (nearly blind) chameleon, I was able to just touch a bug to the front of her mouth and she'd grab it. But this little guy is afraid of tweezers and of me. Ive resorted to force feeding. Twice Ive placed tiny crickets, once a tiny silkie, and once a pre-killed tiny super into his mouth, on top of the tongue at the back, using thin tweezers or a narrow rubbery tip thing on a syringe. His mouth hangs partly open all the time, so I didnt have to force the mouth open. But I did have to hold him and he doesnt like that. This is tedious, time consuming, and stressfull for the little fella. He doesnt have opportunity to chew, even if he could, which I think is a problem. Iam not going to get enough food into him this way.

So, I have also been smashing up bugs, removing the larger bits of chinton/shell, mixing with water, and using a small soft tipped syring to "squirt" food into his mouth. this ensures he is getting food and water. But I am concerned with the potential for causing him to aspirate/choke. Not sure how best to drip/squirt the food mash into him.

Looking for suggestions, techniques and methods that work for others please

thanks

 

[pssh]

I'm not very expierienced about this, but I'd imagine that it'd make him less likely to choke on the smashed food if it was thicker. Then he'd try to 'chew' the food and swallow it as opposed to just letting it just flow down.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks. Its like a thin paste currently. I HAVE to thin it with water in order to get it through the sirynge. Plus he needs to get water somehow.

 

[pssh]

A larger sirynge? He doesn't drink on his own? That's so sad! I'm glad he's with you and you're willing to help him

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Sandra,

At some point you may find it necessary "tube feed" rather than just syringe feed him . With some sick chameleons it is actually less stressful to be able to quickly slip the lubricated tube down their throat and deposit the liquified food.

Here is what I have used in the past while helping keepers with various species. I've seen some rather quick turnarounds with some very sick WC species what couldn't/wouldn't eat/drink on their own. I cut-off a few inches of the end of a catheter tube and slipped it onto the syringe.
This is the one that I got: http://www.catheterwholesalers.com/index.php?p=product&id=1475&parent=46

I bought mine from Creative Pet Supply (http://www.pohina.com/ but you won't ever find them on his website so call him) a few years ago. I don't know if he still has any left . You might be able to get one from your local vet. If all else fails, hobby shops sell a fairly soft silicone tubing used to supply model airplane gas. Soft is an important feature to look for with whatever tubing you find. The catheter tubing is very soft and has a very thin wall.

Use whatever size syringe makes sense for the volume that you intend to deliver. I would deliver 1-2ml to a 100gram chameleon and I might give twice that to an adult Veiled and even more to a large adult Melleri.

 

[jojackson]

I would have suggested the more direct tube also, however, not to be a downer, but it occurs to me your lizards condition will take a great deal of time to correct, aka to get it to a point where it's stable and self feeding. A younger lizard needs food more often, hence more tube/syring feedings, more stress.
Its a young lizard and feeding in this manner is stressful. With the effects of stress in mind, the question is, how long are you prepared to subject to such stress while trying to acheive the desired result?
Im thinking the effects of stress might be counterproductive, cancelling out your efforts to nourish it over a period of time.
Just something to keep in mind.
best wishes as always

 

[chamelisa]

One panther rescue came in with very soft bones. You have to be so careful not to put strain on the bones in the jaw so it's best to get the chameleon to start licking by dropping water onto the tip of his/her nose. Be creative. You'll need a lot of patience too. When the chameleon starts to lick and swallow, gently press a worm or young cricket head into its mouth. No pressure, just wait for the opportunity.

My vet prescribed neocalglucon daily while rehabilitating this chameleon. It had natural sun and eventually recovered well enough to hunt and eat crickets, superworms, silkworms and roaches on his own.

Good luck. It's never easy and takes patience.

 

[chamelisa]

I would have suggested the more direct tube also, however, not to be a downer, but it occurs to me your lizards condition will take a great deal of time to correct, aka to get it to a point where it's stable and self feeding. A younger lizard needs food more often, hence more tube/syring feedings, more stress.
Its a young lizard and feeding in this manner is stressful. With the effects of stress in mind, the question is, how long are you prepared to subject to such stress while trying to acheive the desired result?
Im thinking the effects of stress might be counterproductive, cancelling out your efforts to nourish it over a period of time.
Just something to keep in mind.
best wishes as always

Oh shush Joe! These people and their negativity!

 

[Courtney]

i had to force a cham once..and then again the next year...the above syringe is a good tool. be carefull not to drown. I used and was told by my vet to start with gerber first foods (in the little tupperware container) banannas then alternate with something green like peas. mix the peas with water. dont make it to runny or thick. banannas jump starts their system and my cham seemed to like it but not me shoving it down the throat. i would get him to opent the mouth squirt some in and while he was swallowing i would squirt more in to avoid the stress of shoving it down the throat and having to have him keep opening his mouth it worked out well.

 

[sandrachameleon]

pssh - he can lap up some water on his own, if there are drops on a very nearby leaf for example. But his poor mobility makes it difficult for him to get to water, and I hesitate to over mist or drip in case he should find him self stuck in water and even drown.

...Here is what I have used in the past while helping keepers with various species.

Thanks Dave. I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing. This is almost exactly what I am using. I got it from the vet. The volume of the full syringe is one cc. If I recall correctly, 1cc = 0.001 liters (1ml).
How far back in the throat can I go without hurting him? Its a small chameleon (smaller than he should be for his age), weighing 16grams. If you suggest 1-2 ml for 100grams, thats like .25 ml for this little guy, eh?

Right now he is fed only twice a day most days, and Im trying to ensure its enough food, but also not too much. As well, My partner is also giving him water (dripped on the tip of his tongue, which protrudes from open mouth) mid-day most days if I am not there. He's getting better at accepting water this way, and we're getting better at knowing when he's had enough.

JoJackson - I hear you. Yes, its a heck of a lot of effort and possibly bordering on crewl if the little guy becomes/remains too often stressed and such. Its not my chameleon, so when/if to give up and have the animal put down is not mine. However this little guy, it seems to me, is not giving up himself so for now Im not going to give up on him either. Im doing what I can. Although he will never ever be in good condition, I do still think there is a reasonable chance that he will recover sufficiently to eat on his own. If we can get there, its worth it, I think. Im giving it a month or two before I re-evaluate. His owner agrees with this plan.

chamelisa - what is neocalglucon?

 

[ChromaChameleons]

my 2 cents.. sorry if this is repeated info, as I havent read the entire thread.

If you can produce a liquid food, then apply it to the front of the mouth and watch the gular for a swallow, then repeat.

I use a ball end dosing needle.

Pic here.... http://www.burroblancoaz.com/servlet/the-96/Midwest-Ball-dsh-tip-Dosing-Needle/Detail

you can order in Canada here.... http://www.niagarareptiles.com/pricelist.htm

 

[Tomtom]

yeah courtney is right. baby food is actually good for the cham too. or so i hear.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...How far back in the throat can I go without hurting him? Its a small chameleon (smaller than he should be for his age), weighing 16grams. If you suggest 1-2 ml for 100grams, thats like .25 ml for this little guy, eh?

chamelisa - what is neocalglucon?

Howdy Sandra,

With an appropriate length and diameter tube, you are actually going beyond the back of the throat and on your way to his stomach. You're going beyond the point of no return where he can't just spit it out. The whole process of inserting the tube, deposting the food into the stomach and tube removal shouldn't take longer than about 3-4 seconds. 1ml = ~20 drops of water so I'd imagine 5 drops of food isn't too far off. It might be helpful to track his weight and if he isn't gaining, or worse, is loosing weight then you may need to "up it" or make feeding doses more often. And as has been mentioned, if he is taking his food without "tubing" him then keep it up .

Stealing Chamelisa's response : Neo-Calglucon is the brand name for generic calcium glubionate. It's also found under the Rugby name "Calcionate" syrup. Each teaspoon (5ml) contains 1.8 grams of Calcium glubionate. Per Mader's book, it is dosed at 10mg/kg 1-2 times a day. Ask your vet for dosing instructions.

You can buy it over-the-counter at many pharmacies. If they don't have it, they can order it. I actually bought a bottle that was at a Costco pharmacy. Someone ordered it but never picked it up after a month. I paid around $20 for a pint (a zillion doses).

 

[sandrachameleon]

an update

He is now 17.5grams. I like to think motor control is slightly better (though still quite poor). At least he seems to grab his own face with forelegs and forelegs with back legs less often now. For sure the one eye that used to be shut 99% of the time and is half the size of the other is now open much more often. And sometimes now he will take a small cricket held to his mouth with tweezers. Still has a devil of a time swallowing. Mouth still hangs open and tongue still protrudes. Im still forcefeeding most days.
but all things considered, i think things are moving in a positive direction overall.
View attachment 17111

However he now has a dark spot, like a bruise, on one side. What does this look like to you?
View attachment 17113 View attachment 17114

 

[jannb]

Sandra I'm glad to hear that he's showing a bit of improvement.

 

[kinyonga]

Have you been giving him liquid calcium (such as calcium sandoz or gluconate)? Its supposed to be more readily useable.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Have you been giving him liquid calcium (such as calcium sandoz or gluconate)? Its supposed to be more readily useable.

No, I havent. I dust the feeders, and gutload. I'll ask his owner to consider providing the liquid calcium if its important for the little guys recovery. Had assumed basic gutloading (with high calcium foods) would go a long way to helping (the owners gutloading and supplementing routine was, in my opinion, inadequate), and indeed it seems to be.

Any thoughts on the bruise like mark?

 

[FiffelGoesWest]

I recently had to do the same with my janis, a veiled chameleon.... which she is older im guessing and her jaws were not soft really. im still giving her calcium water every once in awhile now that she is better. But I had to force feed her and at that point i had to open her mouth myself which was stressful for both of us, and put the crickets or water in her mouth. It took some time but she is healthy now and when I put the dropper in her cage she opens her mouth like she knows im just trying to help. Of cousre she still gets in her moods and can be aggressive though. I know its not alot of help or anything but really hope the best to you and good luck!

 

[heloderm]

What I do with the one I adopted from Noelle is take two fingers and touch the sides of his mouth. When I do that he generally opens his mouth and I will take a roach (crushed his head) and slip it into his mouth. I have to hold him while I'm feeding. Many times he's not sure what it is so I have to follow his head and go back and forth till he figures out it's food while he trys to spit it out. At that time he will just take it down. I'm lucky in that he know's when I'm misting and will go up the side of the screen licking the water doplets. Good luck..

 

[kinyonga]

To correct MBD you need to give extra calcium until the bones are healthy again. The quickest way to do this is to get a vet to give it injections until the blood calcium levels are high enough that it can be given a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium back into the bones.

I'm not sure what the bruise would be from...could it be fungal?