How to tell the difference between them?

[Spikethechameleon]

I need to know how to tell the difference between a true veiled chameleon and a sub-spieces of them. i seriously need to know becuase im worried about my chameleon,

 

[Chris Anderson]

You have a normal veiled. The subspecies of veiled chameleon has been found to be a naturally occurring hybrid between Ch. calyptratus and Ch. arabicus and is not available in the US market. Every photo that I've ever seen of Ch. calyptratus calcarifer in captivity is just a normal veiled with some type of advanced MBD resulting in limb and casque deformations.

Chris

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

Hey chris
According to Petr Necas "Chameleons: Nature's Hidden Jewels"
The hybrid is mixed in with the domestic population.

He also pointed out that the hybrid females are both lager,
faster growing and produce greater amounts of eggs.
meaning that such mixed species animals would out produce the "truebloods"
in the domestic breeding market and become the standard.

I'll check the reference when I get back from the office.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Hybrid vigor. Might produce more babies, but in chameleons, sexual selection plays a hand too. Seems the large casque and coloration is a big thing to them. Normal speciation goign on here... pay no attention... nothing to see here...

I wouldn't be surprised if the hybridization in the widl is due to male veields forcibly mounting female arabicus. Can't see what a female veiled would have to do with one of them!

I wish Yemen was friendly - I'd love to get over there and look at things.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hey chris
According to Petr Necas "Chameleons: Nature's Hidden Jewels"
The hybrid is mixed in with the domestic population.

He also pointed out that the hybrid females are both lager,
faster growing and produce greater amounts of eggs.
meaning that such mixed species animals would out produce the "truebloods"
in the domestic breeding market and become the standard.

I'll check the reference when I get back from the office.

Actually you've misinterpreted what Petr wrote. He stated that captive breeding experiments have proven that Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer is in fact a hybrid between Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus and Ch. (Ch.) arabicus. This means that Ch. (Ch.) arabicus was obtained and they were intentionally hybridized to verify the theory, not that there are any Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer mixed into captive populations. Further, he said that Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer closely resembles Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus in that they are large and robust but differ in that they have a smaller casque. He never said they were larger then Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus or anything about them growing faster. Additionally, while he states that they demonstrate high fertility, even in subsequent generations, he never compares the fertility to Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus either but rather is just commenting that they are capable of continued breeding even after generations of continued breeding among themselves.

Even if there were Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer in captive breeding groups at some point, they are a cross between two species (50% one and 50% the other). Once you interbreed them back to either species you don't have the same thing, you have a random assortment of hybrid mess closer resembling one species then the other but never even really being able to be called a true Veiled Chameleon again or even a true 50/50 hybrid representation of Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer, its a random mutt.

Taxonomically, Ch. (Ch.) c. calcarifer does not exist and not a single photograph has ever indicated to me that this hybrid is truly present in the US market.

Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hybrid vigor. Might produce more babies, but in chameleons, sexual selection plays a hand too. Seems the large casque and coloration is a big thing to them. Normal speciation goign on here... pay no attention... nothing to see here...

I wouldn't be surprised if the hybridization in the widl is due to male veields forcibly mounting female arabicus. Can't see what a female veiled would have to do with one of them!

I wish Yemen was friendly - I'd love to get over there and look at things.

Eric,

In my conversations with Petr about this, it is my understanding that the casque in Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus is taller in regions where they live sympatrically with Ch. (Ch.) arabicus. This is as a mechanism for each species to differentiate between the two to avoid hybridization. Exaggeration of traits to aid in such hybridization avoidance is common and I would agree that it is likely that these wild hybrids are likely male Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus forcing themselves on female Ch. (Ch.) arabicus.

Chris

 

[Kent67]

Chris,

Do you know confirmed localities or general range of Ch. (Ch.) arabicus in Yemen? When John Dees went there a couple times several years back he was looking in the mountains around Ta'izz, San'aa, etc and the only chameleons he found were what I would call very standard looking Ch. (Ch.) calyptratus. Just curious where it is that all of this supposed hybreeding (my new word) is going on.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Interesting. I really wish more research was done in the field in Yemen on them. Some day...

 

[Jordan]

I wish Yemen was friendly - I'd love to get over there and look at things.

Bring your hooka. You'll win them over.