I know we're not supposed to mix chams and frogs but...

[Brodybreaux25]

Sold!

I get commission!

 

[snitz427]

I think we were more worried about the frogs here not the cham.

I agree. One of the (many) reasons I like the mantellas is that they are green, very small, and very prone to hiding under objects and leaf litter on the bottom. I don’t think he’ll be seen, and if he is, I doubt my guy would catch him. Again, my cham is a special circumstance and I think the risk, while there, is low. If I’m wrong then he can tell all his friends how he had a $50 frog leg dinner.

I don’t think I would take the chance with another species. The only feeder I’ve seen this guy hussle and hunt for was a stick bug, and even then he missed! Lol

 

[snitz427]

@jamest0o0 I think Kanye already beat you to cornering the market for the man size baby in a onsie. Sorry friend

 

[leedragon]

You’re right, it may not be beneficial, and it may not be detremental. I think it would require the right conditions and the right animals, and even then I wouldn’t do it 9 out of 10 times. But simply saying it introduces a stressor or potential unknown is no different than taking your chameleon outside and introducing them to similiar (uncontrolled) variables.

I think you guys are right, for sure, but everyone is quick to point to stress, where I think we as humans introduce FAR more stress then a non toxic thumbnail frog might.

It is fundamentally different. If you take your animal outside in it´s Cage, you are not supposed to be playing with it but some jackasses do. The animal in it´s Cage outside will get sun which is beneficial for him, it will experience the stress while being moved out. If you put a frog in a confined space with the chameleon it will be stressed by it all day for aslong as it is in it´s Cage or it eats it and dies of poisioning. Not the same at all. We Point stress because chameleons die of stress, some species are more tolerant than others, some will stop eating Close their Eyes and start dying on you slowly. This is what-about-ism whatever there is, is not reason to introduce more of it.

 

[snitz427]

It is fundamentally different. If you take your animal outside in it´s Cage, you are not supposed to be playing with it but some jackasses do. The animal in it´s Cage outside will get sun which is beneficial for him, it will experience the stress while being moved out. If you put a frog in a confined space with the chameleon it will be stressed by it all day for aslong as it is in it´s Cage or it eats it and dies of poisioning. Not the same at all. We Point stress because chameleons die of stress, some species are more tolerant than others, some will stop eating Close their Eyes and start dying on you slowly. This is what-about-ism whatever there is, is not reason to introduce more of it.

I wasnt insinuating that the sun was the risk or stressor. By taking it outside you introduce your chameleon to many things (birds, planes, weather, cars, kids, etc) that may stress it. You introduce it to insects carrying potential parasites, or worse, toxic insects. If a bird poops on the chameleon’s cage, if is certain death... etc etc etc. Do these risks stop anyone from bringing them outside? Usually, no. You evaluate and minimize the risk, or avoid it all together.

I agree leaving a frog exposed could certainly stress it, and putting a toxic species in would be beyond stupid. Any animal below #1 on the food chain is contstantly aware of its surroundings and potential predators, which they are likely exposed to a hundred times per day. For that reason, nearly every species has developed some natural defense to minimize or avoid the risk of being eaten. For the mantella I am interested in, it is the tendency to remain under dense foilage and debris, out of sight.

Again, I very seriously doubt that my chameleon CAN hunt them, and doubt he would venture below the canopy foilage in his cage to try. I also seriously doubt that the frog will see the chameleon from his view at the bottom, under what will be dense foilage. He may wonder where the sky poops come from, but in my instance... I am willing to consider and most likely accept the lessened risk that my frog may get eaten.

I think simply saying “it will cause stress” is a weak response. Every time we walk into a room we add a level of stress to the chameleons. Should we constantly stress these guys out? Of course not, but if we avoided every stressor they’d still be in the wild (and probably still stressed). Doesn’t mean I totally disagree with you, but nearly every thing we do causes some level of stress.

 

[leedragon]

I wasnt insinuating that the sun was the risk or stressor. By taking it outside you introduce your chameleon to many things (birds, planes, weather, cars, kids, etc) that may stress it. You introduce it to insects carrying potential parasites, or worse, toxic insects. If a bird poops on the chameleon’s cage, if is certain death... etc etc etc. Do these risks stop anyone from bringing them outside? Usually, no. You evaluate and minimize the risk, or avoid it all together.

I agree leaving a frog exposed could certainly stress it, and putting a toxic species in would be beyond stupid. Any animal below #1 on the food chain is contstantly aware of its surroundings and potential predators, which they are likely exposed to a hundred times per day. For that reason, nearly every species has developed some natural defense to minimize or avoid the risk of being eaten. For the mantella I am interested in, it is the tendency to remain under dense foilage and debris, out of sight.

Again, I very seriously doubt that my chameleon CAN hunt them, and doubt he would venture below the canopy foilage in his cage to try. I also seriously doubt that the frog will see the chameleon from his view at the bottom, under what will be dense foilage. He may wonder where the sky poops come from, but in my instance... I am willing to consider and most likely accept the lessened risk that my frog may get eaten.

I think simply saying “it will cause stress” is a weak response. Every time we walk into a room we add a level of stress to the chameleons. Should we constantly stress these guys out? Of course not, but if we avoided every stressor they’d still be in the wild (and probably still stressed). Doesn’t mean I totally disagree with you, but nearly every thing we do causes some level of stress.

The sun is the reason to take the chameleon outside. Due it´s benefits, not a cause of damage to it. Yes and that is what-aboutism. Just because something is bad is no a reason to do 10 more bad things. The chameleon benefits from being exposed to natural sun, to rain, to change in presure in the atmosphere, temperatur and humidity, not by being confined with frogs, in captivity chameleon are kept closer to the ground that they would in nature, all the time, the chance of noticing the frog is higher up than it would be in nature. According to Neccas so can chamelon don´t adquired parasites native to the fauna i America due parasites being highly specialist in which hoast they can develop and live in. Again birds or whatever that is outside their Cage will not be exposded to the chameleon as something that is confined inside with it. Why would there be kids in your yard anyway?