I need help! Female veiled cham needs to lay eggs but is eating the lay bin sub.

[xBUNNYCHUx]

So this is baffling to me, my female veiled chameleon is digging around at the bottom of her enclosure, I do keep substrate in her enclosure (I know it's not recommended, but I think it's unnatural not to). She has never attempted to eat the substrate and she seems to enjoy it. Well she is acting as though she needs to lay eggs (very heavy digging in her substrate which is Zilla Jungle Mix), so I made her a lay bin with 50/50 sand and organic soil and she immediately started tasting it. I removed it and have repeated the process a few times now. Yesterday the digging intensified so I tried the lay bin again. She started to dig a little but then start taking big bites of the dirt so I had to remove it again. I don't know what to do. If I don't provide a bin, she will be come egg bound, but if I provide a bin she will die from impaction. Any tips???

 

[MissSkittles]

What kind of sand are you using in the bin? What supplements do you use and how often for each? Can you post some pics of her and your enclosure, including the lay bin?

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

After reading through some of the other feeds, I have a feeling she has mbd, I had no idea I have been using the wrong type of uva/uvb light! I have done so much dang research before I got her and thought after everything I had read for MONTHS, I had it down to a T. I am apparently doing a LOT wrong and I don't know if I have the money to fix the problems now... I have her in a hexagon glass terrarium that is 22x16x19. I am attaching pictures of the cage and bulb I use. The sand im using is washed playsand mixed with organic potting soil. It's dark in her enclosure so the picture isn't super great.

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

Also sorry, I am using these two supplements

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

I use the multi vitamin at least once a week and I dust her food every single time with the calcium. I have also realized the lay bin is too small after reading and have already gotten rid of it. It was only 4inD×4inWx7inL

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

I feel like such an aweful chameleon pet owner....

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok, so yes, there is quite a lot of things that need to be corrected from just the little information I asked. Unfortunately, yours is not an uncommon story. There is a huge amount of outdated and just incorrect info out there on chameleons and no way to know what is right or not. There are even many exotics veterinarians who don’t have the right knowledge about keeping chameleons. They are more unique than most think. You have been doing all that you believed was perfect for your sweet little lady, so no need to beat yourself up. Let’s instead move forward and work on making the needed corrections.
Get yourself a drink and get comfy - I talk a lot. Because of that, I’ll break this into a few different posts.
I’m not sure what to do about her eating the lay bin substrate. Usually we think they eat substrate due to nutrient deficiency. She has been getting too much vitamin D3 and multivitamins, so let me call in @kinyonga who has a wealth of experience and knowledge and can better advise about this, Play sand, either by itself or mixed with no more than 50% organic soil is the preferred lay bin substrate. I do believe that if those two substrates are ingested, while not ideal, they are able to pass thru the digestive system in small quantities.
Your lay bin is much too small. Chameleons seem to prefer at least a 12” long and wide bin that is filled to at least 5-6” deep. One of my girls also prefers to have a tall opaque bin, so that she is more hidden in the bottom of it.
Once she enters the bin or starts digging wherever she has chosen, she needs to have total privacy. If she sees anyone or doesn’t feel safe enough, she will stop digging and can become eggbound. There is only a certain amount of time that she has the urge to dig and lay. You need to get her the bigger bin in there immediately and then cover up the lower part of her enclosure so she can’t see anyone. You can poke some small peek holes in the covering to monitor her, but do NOT let her see you or anyone. It is priority that she lays her eggs. If she isn’t able, she will need a vet who is experienced with chameleons. She may need surgery to remove them, which would also in effect spay her. This is very risky, especially if she has been weakened. Again, @kinyonga is better than I to advise.
More to come…..

 

[MissSkittles]

Once you get your pretty girl past her egg laying, you will need to give her many upgrades and corrections. In order of importance….
Correct uvb - the screw in bulbs are not able to provide adequate uvb any farther away than 2-3”. The standard is a linear T5HO fixture with either Arcadia 6% or ReptiSun 5.0 uvb bulb. There are newer companies starting to offer the bulbs a little cheaper, such as ReptiZoo. These have not yet been proven (to my knowledge) to be quality enough. The fixture needs to be as long as your enclosure is wide, so 24” is most commonly the right size. It has been increasingly difficult to find the uvb, at least in the places I usually go to. Do note that usually the first bulb comes with the light hood on these two, so make sure to get the correct uvb strength. This is a moderately expensive item…usually at least $60+. Here’s some links. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CX5HXI2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://talis-us.com/products/arcad...MIqrHFrZLW_QIVhMWGCh3ATwHIEAQYBSABEgLCH_D_BwE
Supplements - You have been overdosing on vitamin D3 and multivitamins. Normally the D3 would be a big problem as it’s a fat soluble vitamin and therefore not quickly processed/excreted. However, since she hasn’t had the correct uvb light, this may actually kind of helped her. What is correct is to use a phosphorus free calcium without D3 at every feeding except one per week. Then for that one weekly feeding, you’ll alternate between using the calcium with D3 and your multivitamin, so that each is given once every other week, aka twice a month. You want to dust lightly. If your feeders look like powdered donuts you’re using too much.
We didn’t talk about temps and humidity at all, but it’s important to have them correct to prevent illness. Ideal basking temp is and no higher than 80. At night, it’s ideal to have the temp drop into the 60’s, but not all of us can achieve that. Ideal humidity is between 30-50% during the day. With an all glass enclosure, this is more difficult to maintain unless you live somewhere very dry. At night, if you can get your temps at least below 68-70, you can and should run a fogger/cool mist humidifier to boost humidity all the way up. This simulates the natural hydration cycle thru fog in the wild.
Hydration - make sure you are misting (not fogging) 2-3 times during the day for at least 2 minutes each time. Usually right before lights go on and off is the best time to mist. Some like to add a mid day mist or use a dripper for a short time (15-20 minutes).
Enclosure - yours is much too small for your girl. She needs at minimum a 2x2x4’ enclosure or equivalent. I prefer screen or hybrid for new keepers as there’s more flexibility to maintain humidity, ventilation etc. This is a decent expenditure of around at least $140+. https://www.diycages.com/collection...ducts/sc4-48x24x24-jumbo-vertical-screen-cage This is a really nice budget option. I have these and ReptiBreeze and find the DIY to be a little better quality for the same or even less $$. Plus, it’s nice to support a small business. Some people are able to find some decent used enclosures on various marketplaces at a decent price. It will need to be very thoroughly sanitized though.
More to come….

 

[MissSkittles]

Next in importance is your feeders and how you care for them. You don’t just have a chameleon to care for now, but your insect feeders need proper care too. Healthy feeder insects are much healthier for your cham. You want to give your girl a good variety of staple feeders and occasional treats. Some on line vendors sell variety packs, which are perfect for most keepers of one animal. Check the forum sponsors Rainbow Mealworms and Dubia roaches. I’m attaching graphics below to help guide you.
Once you get that nice spacious mini mansion for your girl, you’ll want to fill it with only safe live plants. Pothos is your new bff. Also add lots of branches and vines to provide lots of little roads for her to travel. Keep the floor bare - no substrate! Much easier to clean. Keep her lay bin in as a permanent fixture.
Once she has laid her eggs and you’ve fed her very well for a couple of days after, you’ll then want to start her on a regimen which will help reduce her egg production. This is why you’ll keep her basking temp no higher than 80. The other part of it is to limit feeding to 3-4 feeders, 3 days a week (plus occasional treats). It may take a cycle or two for this to start working fully. For some chams, it seems to only reduce the number of eggs produced. For others, it reduces both the number of eggs produced and the frequency. One of my veiled girls lays once a year. The other hasn’t laid in 3 years. My 1 1/2 year old panther girl has never laid.
I believe I’ve covered at least the most important items you’ll need to correct. The best place for learning the current standards and so much more is https://chameleonacademy.com/

 

[kinyonga]

@MissSkittles has given you lots of GREAT information.

Regarding the lay bin…female veiled chameleons are notorious for eating the cage substrate, lay bin substrate and any plant leaves in the cage especially when they are producing eggs. Because of this it’s important to use only live non toxic well-washed (both sides of the leaves) plants, no substrate that could impact them and it’s also why I use a specific washed sand for lay bins. The sand is produced by Kings and comes in a white bag with red, yellow, blues sand box toys on the front of it. You can get it at Home Depot…
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/king-play-sand-20-kg/1000109167

This sand, when eaten, seems to pass through them without causing impactions…which is why I use it. They also seem to like it to lay their eggs in. I don’t mix it with any other substrate and I moisten it just enough so it holds a tunnel.

The bin needs to be left in the cage..moving it in and out is going to confuse her and might make her not lay the eggs. I know it’s a worry when they eat the substrate.

BTW…you have a beautiful little lady there! I hole she can get through the laying without problems.

Also…if it was me, I’d remove the cage substrate you have so she won’t eat any of it. Because I don’t know if it would cause an impaction or not..I’d err on the safe side.

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

I'm taking her to the vet tomorrow, I am almost certain she has mbd. I'm fairly certain that's the play sand I got too, I didn't mix much of the soil in it, so maybe she will be okay if she eats it?

 

[kinyonga]

@MissSkittles said…”However, since she hasn’t had the correct uvb light, this may actually kind of helped her.” I to agree with this.
I don’t see any visible signs of MBD…why do you think she has it?

@MissSkittles said..”There is only a certain amount of time that she has the urge to dig and lay”…I agree with this too.

Personally, I would use just the sand for the lay in substrate.

Please be aware that the Herptivite only has a beta carotene source of vitamin A and it’s thought that some/all chameleon species can’t convert it.…or maybe can’t convert it well. This is why we use a vitamin powder with a retinal (prEfromed) form of vitamin A in it.

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

I think she has it because her legs are bowed and she doesn't lift herself to crawl anymore, she's just dragging herself. She seems to struggle like she's weak climbing up her branches.

 

[xBUNNYCHUx]

I think she has it because her legs are bowed and she doesn't lift herself to crawl anymore, she's just dragging herself. She seems to struggle like she's weak climbing up her branches.

I just took this picture of her. The other pictures were of a few weeks ago.

 

[kinyonga]

I think she has it because her legs are bowed and she doesn't lift herself to crawl anymore, she's just dragging herself. She seems to struggle like she's weak climbing up her branches.

I added to my previous post.

If she has MBD, then to me it cant be very advanced. I’m not a vet though and can only give my best opinion.