I think my Lil' bud has MBD, HELP!!!

[Blown Pony]

Hey fellas,

I just joined because I need some help ASAP!

My lil bud, Mugzy, is a 7 month old Veiled Chameleon.

He has always looked very shaky since I got him, but for about the last week he has not been able to move around.
His front arms look like jello or at least broken.
I have been hand feeding him meal worms with gut load for the last two days and watering him by a small medicine dripper.

After doing some research I found this on our site

“Does your chameleon show signs of MBD (inability to hold her body up off the branches, arms that have the appearance of having an extra elbow above the real one, inability to shoot the tongue out all the way, flexible casque or jaw, etc.)?”

That is him to a tee.

What can I do? I really don’t think he has much time!
Please respond fast, My Email is Rzemanick@hotmail, if you have something that needs to be emailed


Thanks!
Blown

 

[Julirs]

Answer these questions:
Cage Info:
Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?
Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day?
Temperature - What temperature range have you created? Basking spot temp? What is the temperature at night?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas?

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What kind of schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What are you dusting your feeders with and what kind of schedule do you use?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

The best thing you can do is to get him to a herp vet. MDB really is something that required medical attention.

 

[Blown Pony]

Answer these questions:
Cage Info: It’s a completely screened in cage, about 3’x2’
Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?

Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day? I’m not sure of then name, but it has a bulb that looks like a “squirly Q”. it was the type the pet store recommended. I turn it on in the morning around 8:00 and off around 10:00 at night.

Temperature - What temperature range have you created? Basking spot temp? What is the temperature at night? He is in our kitchen so surrounding temp is around 70, He also has a ceramic heating element, it works like a light bulb w/o light only heat. It stays on all the time and is pointed into his branches.


Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? I don’t know the exact details, but I have coconut peels for the bottom of the cage and water him daily with about 1 cup of water, the ground stays damp. I also spray him around every 3 days.

Plants – Real vines, they are dead now, but I cut them out of the woods and made him a perch with them, the rest are all fake

Location – it is inour kitchen, no fans or vents. Not really a high traffic area

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon – veiled, boy
Feeding – I feed him about 2 dozen large crickets a week and meal worms stay in a bowl in his cage, I refill it when needed. I put some powdered gutload in with the meal worms and the crickets eat it while in the cage. It only has 4% calcium. I think that is what started it. I am going to get some better stuff tonight.

Supplements – none, gonna get some today
Watering – a dripper, yes I have seen him drink.
Fecal Description – large I think for him, mostly brown, I have seen some yellow or almost white ones in there too.
History – none that I know off
Current Problem – MBD and how to fix it.

Here is a pic of his cage.

 

[Blown Pony]

Those pics are from when i first got him about 5 months ago.
I now have new bedding and my new lighting system.
the cage only had that light for about a week the rest of the time I have had the better one.

 

[dodolah]

Those pics are from when i first got him about 5 months ago.
I now have new bedding and my new lighting system.
the cage only had that light for about a week the rest of the time I have had the better one.

lemme guess where do you get the advise on caring for your chameleon.. petco or petsmart?

 

[Blown Pony]

lemme guess where do you get the advise on caring for your chameleon.. petco or petsmart?

Yeah, Petco.
Sorry I am new to this whole thing but am here now, trying to get advice from ya'll, so sideways comments are not needed.

 

[Julirs]

By what you said about jello arms-it may be too late. You need to see a vet ASAP-if he is saveable he will inject him with the calcium that has been missing from his diet.
Here are the other issues that I see...
You don't know what kind of light you have. You need to know. Compact bulbs even with UVB have been causing all types of isses. You need a Zoomed Reptisun 5.0 tube flourescent bulb. You also need to ditch the ceramic heater. They need visible light and heat-a common 75W household bulb in a clamp-lamp works great. You need a great thermometer-digital with a probe to gage temps.
NO SUBSTRATE-chams ingest it and get impacted-a bare cage floor is best-and easy to clean.
OUCH-no supplements(and improper UVB) is what has caused this more than likely. You should be dusting daily with calcium-please search this forum for supplementing regiments.
Unfortunatley you were probably given wrong advice as to how to properly care for your cham and I am very sorry for what you are going through-I lost my first also-but youhave found a great place to get top notch advice from people far more knowledgeable than myself-they have certainly given me all the great advice in the year that I have been keeping chameleons. Please let us know what happens.

 

[Blown Pony]

Well, one of his front arms looks like jello. The other one he can still move and trys to climb with it, but it just looks really weak.

He still eats and is fat so maybe I can catch him in time.
How much do you think it will cost to get him to a vet?

here is some pictures of the items I did not know about; they are not the same brands but the same idea.

Alsomy light looks larger then the one showed.

You said he needs light and heat? Even at night?
I was told not to have lights on at night, and it I did it needed to be the red one. They also told me the heating element was perfect for him.

BTW, thanks for all the help!

 

[dodolah]

look at my response in red:

Answer these questions:
unfortunately, whomever you get your advise in caring chameleon is definitely not a knowledgeable person in chameleon care. there are so many fatal mistakes in your care.. that i was surprised he only get MBD.. is his eyes sunken too? if it is, then not only he got MBD, but he also likely dehydrated.. real bad

Cage Info: It’s a completely screened in cage, about 3’x2’
Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?

this cage is fine for baby chameleons.. just remember get him a big one 24"X24"X48" when he reached adulthood

Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day? I’m not sure of then name, but it has a bulb that looks like a “squirly Q”. it was the type the pet store recommended. I turn it on in the morning around 8:00 and off around 10:00 at night.
This might be 1 of the main reason your cham get MBD. chameleon need 2 type of lighting. UVA and UVB. UVA can b provided by basking lamp, while UVB can b provided by reptisun 5.0 TUBE. Lights should be on 12 hours a day. no less and no more. recommended time 6 am to 6 pm. after 6 pm, all lights including all heat should be OFF. your kitchen should be pitch dark as chameleon needs to go to sleep. He usually will wake up if there is a hint of vibrations in the cage or a hint of light. unless if your room temperature dropped below 60 F, which i doubt

Temperature - What temperature range have you created? Basking spot temp? What is the temperature at night? He is in our kitchen so surrounding temp is around 70, He also has a ceramic heating element, it works like a light bulb w/o light only heat. It stays on all the time and is pointed into his branches.

get rid of the ceramic heat element. and get the real basking lamp. Constant heating everyday will stressed your chameleon. at night they need 10 degrees temperature drop from the day. Basking spot should reach 87 to 95 F. while other areas should be at lows 70

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? I don’t know the exact details, but I have coconut peels for the bottom of the cage and water him daily with about 1 cup of water, the ground stays damp. I also spray him around every 3 days.
Substrate will kill your chameleon. 1. if he accidentally ate the substrate, he can get impaction. Damp substrate is a breeding ground for mold and bacteria which will kill your chameleon. 1 cup a day is just not enough. Daily misting is required. He needs 3 misting a day. not once every 3 days. You risk your chameleon getting dehydrated. Buy a hygrometer. Humidity in the cage should fluctuates between 50 to 70%

Plants – Real vines, they are dead now, but I cut them out of the woods and made him a perch with them, the rest are all fake
Did you do any preparation be4 putting the branch there? washing it with soap and bake them? if not you should... bacteria and parasite can stay hidden in the branch... once it's humid enough, it will infect your chameleon. you need live plants in there... ficus benjamina, hibiscus, golden pothos, schefflera is perfect for chameleon

Location – it is inour kitchen, no fans or vents. Not really a high traffic area
good.. he needs as low traffic room as you can provide
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon – veiled, boy
Feeding – I feed him about 2 dozen large crickets a week and meal worms stay in a bowl in his cage, I refill it when needed. I put some powdered gutload in with the meal worms and the crickets eat it while in the cage. It only has 4% calcium. I think that is what started it. I am going to get some better stuff tonight.
you better not getting the supplement from the store that recommend you all this to begin with. Get herptivite, repcal, and miner-all O.
dust your cricket (don't Smothered them with supplement. oversupplementing can also lead to bone problem). Herptivite MTh, Repcal TF, Minerall WSat. Sun no supplement
Supplements – none, gonna get some today
Watering – a dripper, yes I have seen him drink.
Fecal Description – large I think for him, mostly brown, I have seen some yellow or almost white ones in there too.

I think your chameleon is also dehydrated. a yellow urate is one of the sign. a healthy one should be almost white
History – none that I know off
Current Problem – MBD and how to fix it.

Get your cham to a vet.. any more waiting, i can guarantee you that he'll die for sure. it really is a result of poor husbandry..I'm sorry for that. You definitely is one of the classic victim of misinformation by petstore.

 

[dodolah]

Yeah, Petco.
Sorry I am new to this whole thing but am here now, trying to get advice from ya'll, so sideways comments are not needed.

hah.. i knew it.. sorry not to insult you or anything.. but Petco does exactly the same to me.. resulting in a Respiratory infection to my cham. but, luckily I manage to save him be4 the case gets into a major one. After that whenever i see a poor husbandry case, i always immediately think of petco...
see my response above to correct your husbandry.. (if he can make it thru his MBD) again, it might be sounds hostile... just know that hostility is not directed toward you but Petco..

 

[Julirs]

No light/heat at night-unless your house temps drop below 60 degrees. Read up on this forum about compact flourescents-they are blinding and killing chameleons.
Vet charges vary-some charge 35-some harge 65 or more. But he needs to see a Vet ASAP. That is the responsibility of owning and pet.

 

[dodolah]

also be careful on fattening your chameleon.
Chameleon needs time to grow a strong bone..
an overweight chameleon can break his legs due to his inability of supporting his weight.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Time for vet...........

Hi there...........the others on this forum have said just about everything that needs to be said to help your chameleon. I'm just going to put emphasis on getting him to a vet ASAP. A vets care is his only real hope at this point. Where do you live? Getting him into some real sunshine would make a big difference too. I don't suppose you live anyplace where that is possible.

He needs the proper Reptisun tube lighting. I am going to say Reptisun 10.0 in this case. He needs injected calcium and possibly liquid calcium. Both things would be provided by the vet if they are needed. When you go to the vet (I say when, because if you don't he's not going to make it) you can ask the vet about splinting the front leg that is the worst. I rescued a cham with MBD once and I bandaged a limb to give it support during the recovery. This did help the limbs heal in a more straightened manner than if it had been left on it's own. Good luck with your boy. I hope you have a happy ending to his little story. Remember, his life depends on you.

 

[Blown Pony]

First off, I need to thank all of you one more time.
I could not ask for speeder responses’!

Now if you could PLEASE outline the most critical things I need to change.
Money is very tight right now(I know that is no excuse) but it is what it is.

I am the type of guy that uses distilled water to wash my car, I can tell you what PH your wax, wash, polishers, and tire shine needs to be according to your paint on your car.
Do I really need to know all of that, or does it really matter that much? No, but I am anal about my cars.

The point I am trying to make is, everyone is anal about something, mine is cars, yall’s is reptiles. I need the pure basics to get him back to health. He will get to a vet ASAP most likely tonight. I can and will change all of these recommendations in time, (by the end of the month) but I think time is desperate and some of these things are more important than others. I need to know which ones.


Again sorry for my ignorance, and thanks for your help!

Blown

 

[Ashley]

Poor guy

Please get this little guy to a vet right now! He may not have much time.
The vet will get some calcium into him hopefully in time.
After that then you can deal with the setup up and husbandry. There should be no substrate in your cage....at all. If he accidentally ingests it (which is very likely) it can cause an impaction.
Make sure he has a UVB bulb (the box actually says UVB)for 12 hours a day and a heat lamp. His basking spot should be in the low 90's and the ambient temps in the 80's. At night it can be down to the low 70's. The UVB is essential for him to utilize the calcium that you will be feeding him.The heat in his basking area will help him to digest the food thhat he eats.
They cannot live without water. I feel that it is one onf the most important aspects of husbandry. He needs to misted at leat 2x a day for about 10 minutes each time. He does not need a water bowl, he will not use it. I give mine showers a few times a month on a plant. I let them hang out for about 30 minutes.
I do like 4 3/4" crickets a day and calcium 2-3x a week and vitamin supplement 1-2x a week. I try to mix up the bugs. Silkworms are very nutritious as well as pheonix worms. I would go light on the meal worms. They may taste good but they have almost no nutritional value and are hard for you critter to digest. Under calcifying will cause MBD, over calcifying will cause a white powdery nasal discharge.
The cage you have him in is the right cage. Try a live plant, they are great. A ficus or somthing close to it. It cuts down on the cluttery look but gives them lots of places to go. Make sure they can get form top to bottom and on all sides so that the bugs can't get to a place where he can't get to them.
My main point is, get him to the vet now. Sadly enough Petco has very few employees who actually know how to take care of chameleons.We have all bitched and complained at them but they continue to sell them to naive customers who trust their opinion. Sadly you are another victim. I hope he gets better.

 

[Ashley]

By the way, welcome to our forum!

 

[Julirs]

Money saving tips:
You need calcium supplement-Repcal is most recommended-it is about $7-$8
You need Zoomed Reptisun UVB bulb-cheapest online-$15 and shipping-or see what local Petstores have-they charge around $25-you can buy at Walmart an undercabinet light that will house an 18" bulb for $7.00, and for $6.00 you can buy a clamp lamp in the automotive department that will house a 60W or 75W bulb for heat and basking.

Take out the substate and put in a live pothos or something to sustain humidity. What part of the country are you in?

 

[Dyesub Dave]

Here's the quick and dirty!!

#1 VET
#2 MISTING 3 TIMES A DAY
#3 SUPPLEMENT FOR FOOD
#4 PROPER HEAT LAMP & UVB
#6 NO SUBSTRATE - Or use paper towels
#7 REAL NON-TOXIC PLANTS - Helps keep humidity up and some chams eat the leaves
#8 LARGER CAGE - When you feel he's back to good health start looking now for a larger cage. The more room he has the better.

HOPE THIS HELPS!!

Dyesub Dave.

 

[dodolah]

no problem.. the most basic one is the Vet visit...
Since you already described jello like leg... that shows your pet's MBD is in advanced stage. I really hope your chameleon's gonna make it thru.

After all, no point in changing the enclosure, if your pet is not there to enjoy it.
One of the must change is the UVB (like pardalis girl said... in this stage your cham might need a heavier light reptisun 10.0 and UVA, if you live in California or any other area that gets sun in all seasons... then he definitely need the real thing. the best time to put him outside is 10 am to 2 pm).

2nd, is getting rid of the substrate and the ceramic heat,
3rd is getting all the supplements that i told you and start dusting immediately.

after that it is imperative to get everything that we told you be4..
It sounds a lot and will cost you lots of money.. yes...
unfortunately what we are telling you to get is really is the cheapest thing you can get for your chameleon to thrive and stay alive.

just like cars... this type of reptile comes with high maintenance parts.
All the things that we recommend is not some kind of paint job or air freshener for cars..
but they are more analogous to radiator, wheel, transmission, battery, and distributor, etc.. without them you won't be able to get your car runs.. well, you get the idea..