Im Ready (I think to introduce a male and female)

[Ethan]

two days ago my female VC 8months old, just had her second successful sterile egglay. Shes tried but already eating and drinking with her normal vigor. My male is finally (5-6 months old) at sexual maturity. How long do I wait to let her recover before I introduce them? Also please let me know step by step how to introduce them for the best results.

Thanks in advance.

 

[pssh]

I suggest you do a bit more research. you would have found that the general suggestion is not to do it until the female is a year old. You need to cut down her food intake if she has already had two clutches at 8 months.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I agree with pssh. She is laying too young and that is a tremendous stress on her growing body. You don't want to induce your female to use all her metabolic resources on developing fertile eggs when she needs those nutrients for her own growth. The eggs/babies and the female will suffer if she is laying too early. Wait until your female is at least a year of age and in good health. Your male should be older too in my opinion. Rushing into breeding will only complicate things and compromise the health of your breeding animals. Patience.

 

[ChameleonRave]

I agree with ferret and pssh, cut back on her food if she has had 2 clutches already, and if shes 8 months old I would wait until she is about 10-14 months to breed, so you know she is fully grown and is healthy enough to breed, my female veiled just laid yesterday a clutch of 62 eggs and I cut back on her food the whole time she was gravid and she laid a lot of eggs still.

 

[Ekaj13]

Why would placing a gravid female on a lower food intake affect her egg production? In my opinion, it would do nothing but stress her body more...

 

[Ace]

Why would placing a gravid female on a lower food intake affect her egg production? In my opinion, it would do nothing but stress her body more...

they are suggesting before she becomes gravid again to cut back food intake...its a factor in larger egg clutches and also due to latger clutch sizes, it can take a toll on the ffemale and have a shorter lifespan.....

 

[LittleApollo]

If you give less food before she becomes gravid then her body is more likely to react and either not produce any eggs at all, or fewer eggs so that she doesn't waste her resources on too many eggs.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Why would placing a gravid female on a lower food intake affect her egg production? In my opinion, it would do nothing but stress her body more...

Giving less food is not the same as starving her. If she is producing a lot of eggs she is probably being fed too much. In nature it would be favorable to produce more eggs in times of plenty because there is theoretically more food for babies if the mom is well fed, and there are enough resources to feed the mom and the growing eggs. That's the time to make as many babies as possible for greatest chances of survival. Versus in a time of more limited food (not necessarily famine) you don't want to produce as many babies because there is less food for the mom to use to make healthy babies, and less food for the babies when they hatch.

We have to take the concepts of nature and apply them to our captive situations. By providing your female with lots and lots of food you are stimulating her body to grow quickly and make babies fast. This can in the long term shorten their lives significantly. In the wild there are variations with each season so one may be plentiful (make lots of eggs) and the next may be limited (conserve resources and make fewer eggs). This is very different from her sitting in a small cage with less exercise being fed as many crickets as she would like to eat all the time. It is healthier for your female, especially because she is young, to stimulate her to conserve resources, grow strong bones for herself and stay healthy instead of becoming an egg making machine at the expense of her own health.

 

[kinyonga]

Well said ferret! The idea I had when I started to prevent the veileds from laying eggs at all or at least laying small clutches. One more point though...and this is just my idea...can't find any studies that prove it...but the "diet" should be done when the chameleon is starting to grow the follicles for the next batch of eggs...so a couple of days/few days after she has laid her eggs. This way there will be less follicles ovulating and therefore less eggs...IMHO.

 

[justjumpit621]

Also lower her temps by a few degrees. It really works, I had a sickly female veiled and to prevent her from becoming gravid I did this. If she ever became gravid she would most certainly have died no questions asked before I could have even tried to save her.

 

[Ethan]

I was very happy that she had her second clutch as I saw the toll my overfeeding had done and will and have cut back her food intake alot. But why wait so long? I'm under the impression they are mature at 6 months. Is this not the case? If so what should I do in the mean time to stay occupied with the hobby? I ask this seriously and with respect. Give me some ideas to tweak somethings so I stay interested and stay with it. I breed angelfish then gave up fresh and then went to saltwater and breed clowns and then took the tank down. It's the excitement of trial and error learning and growing until I've mastered the animal in this case I want a full clutch to hatch live babies and grow them till they are ready for the pet store

 

[melric]

I was very happy that she had her second clutch as I saw the toll my overfeeding had done and will and have cut back her food intake alot. But why wait so long? I'm under the impression they are mature at 6 months. Is this not the case? If so what should I do in the mean time to stay occupied with the hobby? I ask this seriously and with respect. Give me some ideas to tweak somethings so I stay interested and stay with it. I breed angelfish then gave up fresh and then went to saltwater and breed clowns and then took the tank down. It's the excitement of trial and error learning and growing until I've mastered the animal in this case I want a full clutch to hatch live babies and grow them till they are ready for the pet store

It's like saying a 13 year old girl is sexually mature so why not let her have kids. Because it isn't healthy and she hasn't developed fully.

 

[laurie]

I was very happy that she had her second clutch as I saw the toll my overfeeding had done and will and have cut back her food intake alot. But why wait so long? I'm under the impression they are mature at 6 months. Is this not the case? If so what should I do in the mean time to stay occupied with the hobby? I ask this seriously and with respect. Give me some ideas to tweak somethings so I stay interested and stay with it. I breed angelfish then gave up fresh and then went to saltwater and breed clowns and then took the tank down. It's the excitement of trial and error learning and growing until I've mastered the animal in this case I want a full clutch to hatch live babies and grow them till they are ready for the pet store

Ethan I know I will sound like a witch and I don't mean to but here goes. Chameleons need to be appreciated for what they are not as baby factories. As much as we all on this forum know about pet store care of chameleons, it is devastating to hear a new person wanting to raise babies to go to a pet store.
If you find that the chameleons are not sufficiently interesting without babies then maybe you need a different type of pet. What was said earlier is accurate as far as a cham can lay eggs at 6 months and it can kill her. Period, it can kill her. It is like a 12 year old girl having a baby, it happens but never is it planned!!!!I can't give you any ideas to tweak so you stay interested, I would say get out now before you kill your chams. Sorry that is harsh but it is my opinion - for what it is worth.

 

[PrettyInInk87]

Ethan I know I will sound like a witch and I don't mean to but here goes. Chameleons need to be appreciated for what they are not as baby factories. As much as we all on this forum know about pet store care of chameleons, it is devastating to hear a new person wanting to raise babies to go to a pet store.
If you find that the chameleons are not sufficiently interesting without babies then maybe you need a different type of pet. What was said earlier is accurate as far as a cham can lay eggs at 6 months and it can kill her. Period, it can kill her. It is like a 12 year old girl having a baby, it happens but never is it planned!!!!I can't give you any ideas to tweak so you stay interested, I would say get out now before you kill your chams. Sorry that is harsh but it is my opinion - for what it is worth.

I FULLY agree.

 

[farrahsc]

Well said Laurie! I agree too!

 

[Ethan]

Respectfully. I get on here for advice not lectures. Then after the lecture the rest of the people on just agree and not one person offered what I asked for how to keep my interest WHILE I TAKE ADVICE given and wait till 14 months for introduction. I have moved closer to proper care taking of an animal most kill. I have not yet done so YET. And I don't think I will cause I keep following advice given. But WOW really guys? This stuff takes time to master and that's all I'm trying to do. Mastery includes keeping my animals alive and in good health (both have been to the vet) but again respect to all of you that can grow these beautiful animals but I've seen posts on here from people who clearly havent got even the right enclosures for their chams get advice when asked question. Instead I get there not Baby factories and judgements on all pet stores. The overfeeding thing almost killed me when I found out that lowering the amount of food was a positive she was already Gravid and I worked with her to have that clutch and will never make that mistake again but I asked a question and instead of answer got a lecture.

 

[kinyonga]

Its great that you like to study a species and learn about it...I applaud you for that...but its sad that you are not worried about the chameleons' well-being but instead want to learn from mistakes you might make that you could avoid along the way rather than putting your energies into bettering their captive existance.

You said..."I've seen posts on here from people who clearly havent got even the right enclosures for their chams get advice when asked question"...and the advice given is/was help the people do the best they can to help the chameleon live a long healthy life...which is the advice you've been offered on here.

You said..."It's the excitement of trial and error learning and growing until I've mastered the animal"...IMHO breeding an animal and having babies from it once may prove that one is on the right track to good husbandry but breeding to multiple generations, having them live long and healthy lives shows that one has mastered it. To me that's the thrill!

If you want to do something in the meantime...perhaps you could study follicular stasis, dystocia, eye issues, MBD and see if you can't find out how to prevent them to truly improve the longevity of chameleons. If you can't wait a few months for the chameleons to be old enough to mate, then how are you going to wait 7+ months for the eggs to hatch?

If you want so desperately to breed, then this is how you do it...but if they were mine I would wait and in the meantime try to study chameleons further to ensure that you will eventually master it. Show the female to the male by holding her outside the male's cage. Watch their reactions. This ensures that they can't hurt each other until you can determine if they are in a receptive "mode" to each other.

If the female is calm, stays calm colors, does not inflate her body, moves slowly away from the male, hugs the branches...then she is receptive.

If she gapes, hisses, lunges at the male, rocks back and forth, takes on dark background colors, etc. then she is non-receptive/gravid and should be put back in her own cage.

If the male coils and uncoils his tail, inflates his body, raises on hand up near his chin, hisses, etc. then he does not recognize the female as a receptive female....and the female should be put back in her cage.

If he approaches her with his bright colors on and does not act as above and the female acts receptively you can try to put the two together....but watch for any sudden negative (non-receptive) changes.

When the female takes on the dark background colors and non-receptive actions, she should be removed from the cage.

Have you thought of the possible consequences of breeding them too young?

 

[Ethan]

I'm not going to. Not till they are 12-14 months. It makes sense the concept of a girl at 13 can get pregnant but.... See that's what makes sense. I respect emotional attachment to your pet. Up until I asked, the 3 books I bought breeding sections are what I was going off of. Each one had different methods. So I asked. Got some good info. Don't breed them till they are older. So I will wait. But I will say this. Even the worst question by a junior member should always be answered in a positive way and not a demeaning way. I can tell you truthfully if you have to answer a question with "I'm going to sound like a witch" then maybe you should hold off on answering until you know your NOT going to sound like a witch. Honey and vinegar and all that.

 

[Ethan]

Also. I agree with you on longevity being a source of pride. Just as much if not more than the breeding aspect. I hope to keep my male to 7 years and my female to 5+.
The eyes I've read on and look at my chams daily for issues as far as their bones..... Thats more stressful. What am I looking for to ensure I don't have issues?
The other 2 things you mentioned. When and if you have time, educate me as I'm not yet familiar with either.
Thank you for the info it is well received and I will wait till 1 year before I make an introduction. I have nothing on the ground of my males enclosure and in my female now that we got past this last clutch and I know how to hold off on feeding I'm thinking of removing the substrate in her cage as well. This makes cleaning very easy but what is your preference when it comes to this?

 

[pssh]

The more emotional posts were directed at your seemingly careless attitude towards the animals. Obviously you care about them as you are going to wait, but it didn't sound like that when you said you needed something from them to hold your interest.

The way I look at it, in a way, it was like saying that you have a boy dog and a girl dog and you didn't really like them unless you bred them as soon as possible. People can relate better to mammals sometimes, so maybe you will get what im saying. That's just how I saw it when I first read it.

People here can get a bit emotional, and often times our own emotions decide the way we interpret text. In reality, you have no idea how the post was intended to sound, so it's best not to assume anything. Most people here just care a lot. Sometimes more than I personally see as appropriate, but in the end they have good intentions. They only want what's best for the animals.

Edit: in response to your laying question, many of us leave a tub of laying medium in the enclosure. Some girls will lay in the actual tubs and some will not. The ones that won't usually show signs of digging in the bins and then are transferred into a much larger bin that they will be housed in until they are done laying. The tub in the cage should be at least 12x12x8 or so.