Inbreeding panther chameleons

[evo03rt]

Just out of curiosity what do u guys think of inbreeding chameleons? Would u want to know if ur buying a inbreed chameleon? I found that a panther chameleon company is inbreeding! Do you guys think that it is ok to do ive done some research and there is alot of science against it and some that isnt. Please share!
Thanks
Roman

 

[craig90]

I would think it's a bad idea. Inbreeding usually leads to a higher probably of producing unhealthy animals.

Two related animals have a higher chance of carrying the same genetic mutations. If the mutations are recessive (meaning you need two copies for the gene for it to be expressed), mating two related animals greatly increases the chance of the mutation being expressed. If the animals are unrelated the chance that the mutation is inherited from both parents is extremely small.

I don't know if there are tons of recessive disorders with chameleons like there are with humans, but I would not want to buy chameleons that have been bred from closely related parents.

 

[poison]

Inbreeding is how most morphs out there are made.

 

[maxttu]

Inbreeding is how most morphs out there are made.

Hmmm, I thought morphs would come from crossing locales...

 

[camimom]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/line-breeding-117838/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...meleon-siblings-not-saying-im-going-do-99639/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/inbreeding-84252/

all those can answer your question

 

[poison]

Hmmm, I thought morphs would come from crossing locales...

I was talking about reptiles in general. I'm not sure how these blue bar, yellow bar ect are made. Don't think they are even morphs (genetic birth defect in other words) but more of a natural accuring color variation. Could be wrong. Often times people will cross localities to get a morph started into another locale.

 

[evo03rt]

Yea so u guys wouldn't like to buy a inbreed or line breed chameleon so why is it that c a big chameleon company is doing it and not even saying that there inbreeding?

 

[camimom]

Would you want to buy a reptile that was inbred and has the potential for a genetic defect that could shorten its life, or has a physical deformation?

Just because someone does it, doesnt mean its supposed to be done. or is safe to do.

 

[poison]

Yea so u guys wouldn't like to buy a inbreed or line breed chameleon so why is it that c a big chameleon company is doing it and not even saying that there inbreeding?

I have baught line bred animals and a lot of people have as well. Again most morphs originated from line breeding. If anybody has a morph then they have a animal with birth defects. So long as there are no obvious ill efects then I don't see a problem With that being said, I'm not a big fan of morphs

 

[camimom]

I have baught line bred animals and a lot of people have as well. Again most morphs originated from line breeding. If anybody has a morph then they have a animal with birth defects. So long as there are no obvious ill efects then I don't see a problem With that being said, I'm not a big fan of morphs

There is a difference between a morph and a inbred reptile.

Morphs aren't all in bred.

a Morph simply relates to the coloring of the reptile.

for example, a translucent veiled is a morph, but is NOT caused by in-line inbred breeding.

Same with panther crosses and even locales, , these are morphs, not in bred chameleons.

 

[poison]

There is a difference between a morph and a inbred reptile.

Like I said a lot of morphs are caused by inbreeding.

Morphs aren't all in bred.

No they are not. But the majority of them originated from line breeding (speaking of reptiles in general not just chams)

a Morph simply relates to the coloring of the reptile.

That different coloring of a reptile is a genetic birth defect. Often times caused by line breeding. Not all morphs are color mutation. There are also pattern mutations and scale less mutations. Even giant mutations.

for example, a translucent veiled is a morph, but is NOT caused by in-line inbred breeding.

Any clue on where the first translucent came from?

Same with panther crosses and even locales, , these are morphs, not in bred chameleons.

When I am speaking of "morphs" I am not talking about loaclities. I am fully aware of what a locality is. I am talking about captive genetic birth defects. A locatlity is a natural accuring color or in some cases there is a defferent in size.

 

[Kent67]

The first translucent line originated from a wild caught that was imported to Europe and selectively bred for the trait.

Localities would probably best be referred to as regional color forms rather than morphs.

 

[poison]

The first translucent line originated from a wild caught that was imported to Europe and selectively bred for the trait.

This is another common way to bring morphs into captivity. Thanks for the info

Localities would probably best be referred to as regional color forms rather than morphs.

Yes I agree. Causes to much comfusion imo.

 

[evo03rt]

So back to where i was earlier u guys would like to know if ur buying a inbreed panther chameleon right?

 

[Chameleon Company]

I have baught line bred animals and a lot of people have as well. Again most morphs originated from line breeding. If anybody has a morph then they have a animal with birth defects. So long as there are no obvious ill efects then I don't see a problem With that being said, I'm not a big fan of morphs

While line-breeding has worked with other species of reptiles, as has been noted here, and in many past discussions in CF, it is a recipe for disaster with chameleons. It does not matter that it has been done with such as ball pythons, for instance. Chameleons are not ball pythons. Line-breeding in chameleons produces lower fertility and hatch rates, an observable incidence of genetic defects, often above 25%, and numerous unseen complications.

There is no need to argue in the abstract here.

 

[poison]

While line-breeding has worked with other species of reptiles, as has been noted here, and in many past discussions in CF, it is a recipe for disaster with chameleons. It does not matter that it has been done with such as ball pythons, for instance. Chameleons are not ball pythons. Line-breeding in chameleons produces lower fertility and hatch rates, an observable incidence of genetic defects, often above 25%, and numerous unseen complications.

There is no need to argue in the abstract here.

Hi, thanks for the info. Any reason as to why it is more harmful to chams then other reptiles?

No arguing here, just having a conversation

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hi, thanks for the info. Any reason as to why it is more harmful to chams then other reptiles?

No arguing here, just having a conversation

As to why it is less successful with chameleons than with such as ball pythons, I can only speculate. Among other things, I would observe that chameleons are one of the smartest reptiles out there, if not the smartest reptile in the world. That they are far more complex in every measurable way. And by those measures, a higher animal. I have experience with about 30-40 inbreeding events with chameleons, all unintentional. The poor results are consistent.

 

[fluxlizard]

chameleons are one of the smartest reptiles out there, if not the smartest reptile in the world. That they are far more complex in every measurable way

OK, so this is maybe a little side-topicked but wondering if you could expound on this thought a bit.

Firstly, what the evidence is that they are more intelligent than other reptiles (ever see the intelligence studies of monitor lizards count to 6 or seen iguanas that are housetrained and who enter and leave a house at will or tegus that will come when called without food reward and who build nests out of dry grasses? Or skinks that guard their eggs or care for their young?).

I've bred a number of species as well as other lizards and I have to say I am not convinced chams show as much intelligence as a number of others (see above examples) and I've got to wonder about complexity claims as well?

Secondly- how does intelligence or complexity play a role in line breeding? Higher animals such as poultry and dogs and even humans (check out european royalty in history and current marriage practices in the middle eastern world where it is not un- common for cousins to marry cousins) have been and are being line bred in spite of more intelligence and complexity than chameleons?

Not at all saying I disagree with your conclusions about the negative effects of line breeding in chameleons, only on your thinking about why this is so.

 

[poison]

I agree 100% with what he said ^^

I too would like to see studdies doen. I don't breed any type of reptile and don't plan to ( have in the past) but I have kept several species and chams don't seem as intelligent as monitors or iguanas imo. I also don't see how being "smart" has anything to do with inbreeding. Not trying to bash just want clarification on what you meant.

 

[evo03rt]

There is a panther chameleon breeding company selling chameleons and not being truthful on what there doing which is really bothering me and i dont know who to contact my attorney is saying that what he is doing is mis advertising so any help i don't want to say any names yet either! But it will come out eventually! They also have made a huge business out of it. Which i feel is not far because know one knows what there buying and it easy to get away with for them because most of there clients are new to panthers and when they die young they can blame on they where not taking care of them right.
Thanks
Roman