Inbreeding panther chameleons
- Thread starter evo03rt
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reefercheefer
Established Member
Personally I wouldn't inbreed or introduce inbred or line Bred animals into my projects for a number of reasons. If I ever turned a lot of bad eggs or unwillingness to breed etc., the animals genetics would be my first thought. Even though that in the wild on an isolated island inbreeding MAY take place then that is just nature. success of a spieces genetics depends on the strong mating with the strong that survive to adulthood. never would I force related chams to breed for any reason. There are plenty of chams available in the US to avoid doing so. We are long past the point of trying to establish a population here. There are no new morphs that come from crossing locales, only color changes n consistencies. there are also no proven 100% pure bloodlines and people just go off know characteristics. Even the most experienced breeders opinion is as good as the nexts. who's knows Wat your chams blood lines originate from long down the road, which is why a lot of locales have lots of diversity. It's just sad that some companies business, ethics, and views are less than favorable to most real keepers and not pet owners. There has been an unnatuaral characteristic I've discovered after viewing lots of pics of offspring of a particular companies chams that is not not found in anyone else's chams, collections, projects and ecspecially the wild. After learning the breeding practices of this company in mind it all made sense.
Oliviabryant
Member
If that's true then screen shot the email and post it on the fauna classifieds board of inquiry. Obviously this forum frowns upon bad mouthing of any sort nor would the moderators want to clean up the mess.
Why do you think this company's animals die young? Even with a constant stream of new people that is a going out of business model.
It works out very well that inbreeding produces such weak animals with low hatch rates. When most of the babies die there is no way a business can survive as there would be little to sell. It is a practice that takes care of itself very quickly. There is no future in producing dead chameleons. And don't worry. A business that sells animals with defects will be called out very quickly. You will see multiple posts on the forums showing the weak animals. They may be able to fool new people, but we will know quickly here. Search through the forum posts for this company name and if they have been in business and have been doing this for a while you should find a number of complaints of weak animals. You cannot hide a consistent practice of bad quality.
Post some pictures of this animal so we can see what you are noticing as far as weak traits.
pssh
Avid Member
I think I know which business this is about. There is a huge thread on fauna about it from a while ago, and it is easy to find if you search. The company claimed they were line breeding, while others felt what they were doing is not line breeding, but inbreeding. It is about a very well known and respected company, so it was odd for a lot of people to learn about their practices. What they claim to be doing directly goes against Jim's experiences with inbreeding. I don't know why that is, but apparently they have bred siblings without issues.
Trace
Captain Awesome
May I remind everyone that Chameleon Forums is not currently setup to deal with the reviews and inquiries of companies or individuals. It's a complicated decision, but ultimately it was made to avoid the difficulty involved with properly moderating such threads and the negativity that often breeds from them.
A discussion on breeding is fine, but any references to companies and past disagreements, no matter how oblique, will be promptly removed and/or this thread closed. If this issue has been started at Fauna Classifieds, it can certainly be resolved there as they are equipped to deal with these types of problems and have certain standards in place that offer a fair medium for resolution.
My thoughts are final on this matter.
Trace
A discussion on breeding is fine, but any references to companies and past disagreements, no matter how oblique, will be promptly removed and/or this thread closed. If this issue has been started at Fauna Classifieds, it can certainly be resolved there as they are equipped to deal with these types of problems and have certain standards in place that offer a fair medium for resolution.
My thoughts are final on this matter.
Trace
Dkrygowski
New Member
Line breeding
Just a note to say that my vet told me that Secretariet was the #1 racehorse stud in the world for 21 straight years without ill effects. I suppose it matters most what genes your combining by line breeding. Good + good may = better. Poor + poor = worse.
Just a note to say that my vet told me that Secretariet was the #1 racehorse stud in the world for 21 straight years without ill effects. I suppose it matters most what genes your combining by line breeding. Good + good may = better. Poor + poor = worse.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
As I do have a bit of experience with inbreeding, let me a add a few additional observations and opinions;
1) I do believe that it genetically weakens the next generation.
2) It reduces the hatch rate of that next generation, and of those that hatch, more are prone to die early than with a normal clutch. Whether the hatch rate is reduced by 10% or 50%, it will vary. Whether the infant mortality rate will be higher likewise, will vary.
3) While I believe every offspring will be somewhat compromised, it will only manifest visually, as in observable physical defects, in about 20-30% of the offspring. Of those, 75% or more will be males. I do not know why it is always more pronounced with the males.
4) Many of the offspring will appear as normal. They can then be bred into unrelated bloodlines, and the genetic viability will be strengthened.
I do not recommend in-breeding, and personally, do not want to produce physically reduced chameleons if I can avoid such, just as a matter of ethics, even though it happens in the wild. But so long as it is disclosed to a potential buyer, then I do not see any betrayal of trust by the seller.
1) I do believe that it genetically weakens the next generation.
2) It reduces the hatch rate of that next generation, and of those that hatch, more are prone to die early than with a normal clutch. Whether the hatch rate is reduced by 10% or 50%, it will vary. Whether the infant mortality rate will be higher likewise, will vary.
3) While I believe every offspring will be somewhat compromised, it will only manifest visually, as in observable physical defects, in about 20-30% of the offspring. Of those, 75% or more will be males. I do not know why it is always more pronounced with the males.
4) Many of the offspring will appear as normal. They can then be bred into unrelated bloodlines, and the genetic viability will be strengthened.
I do not recommend in-breeding, and personally, do not want to produce physically reduced chameleons if I can avoid such, just as a matter of ethics, even though it happens in the wild. But so long as it is disclosed to a potential buyer, then I do not see any betrayal of trust by the seller.
Lathis
Chameleon Enthusiast
It's not because you're educating people or because of site sponsors. More likely it's because the rules of this forum have been explained, but your posts continue to break them. Chameleon Forums does not allow "Board of Inquiry" type postings. It's time intensive and can easily become hostile. (Sorry, if I am speaking out of turn.)
If you have a documented and legitimate concern with a breeder, take the time to post on Fauna Classified's Board of Inquiry. That is appropriate venue for your issues with a specific individual/company.
Trace
Captain Awesome
Chris Anderson has been very patient with you.
This has been explained to you both privately and publicly. Please take your gripe to Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry. Unfortunately your behaviour has forced me to close this thread.
American BOI
This has been explained to you both privately and publicly. Please take your gripe to Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry. Unfortunately your behaviour has forced me to close this thread.
American BOI
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