inbreeding

[allencg101]

ever hear about the blue people in kentucky thats the result of doing it doggy style with your sister. so don't believe it when people say inbreeding is the best put your sister to the test!!! but in all honesty i wouldn't be suprised if many of the bloodlines of panthers out there now have some inbreed blood in them from the earlier days of the farms that they come from, from madagascar people will do anything in those parts of the world for a quick buck but i still wouldn't do it!!!

 

[AllFallDown]

If a graduate student were to come to me with an "idea", I can almost guarantee that they would not have the funding needed for my guinea pigs.

Its a brick wall. That's pretty much end-of-story.

I don't know, I went to a conference a few years ago in which one session was an hour long talk on the physics and mathematics of coin tosses. She even built a contraption which flipped it in such a way to guarantee either heads or tails.

This study was funded by an NFS grant. I sat there the whole time thinking "why in gods name was this study ever funded and why should anyone care?" (And I'm a theorist!!)
I am sure she had good justification but it goes to show you if worded properly, you'd be surprised what you can get supported.

 

[Chameleon Company]

ever hear about the blue people in kentucky thats the result of doing it doggy style with your sister. so don't believe it when people say inbreeding is the best put your sister to the test!!! but in all honesty i wouldn't be suprised if many of the bloodlines of panthers out there now have some inbreed blood in them from the earlier days of the farms that they come from, from madagascar people will do anything in those parts of the world for a quick buck but i still wouldn't do it!!!

I can sympathize, and enjoy the laugh, but you are incorrect. In Madagascar, whatever it is that you think a "farm" should be, it isn't. They go out and collect females to their heart's content And they lay eggs. They have zero motivation to have to worry about breeding and husbandry and genetics.

 

[Cainschams]

Were the chameleons F1 or more generations down the line, Jim? Just wondering and if it was already posted sorry

So, here is my problem. I have two CB K. matschiei (Giant Fischers) which are from the same clutch. As far as I know there are none out there that are unrelated or maybe 1 or 2. Tanzania is no longer exporting and they never really did export many of this species when they were. I wanted a male and female in case if/when the time comes to breed there are none I can find that are unrelated. My thoughts were/are that I would have a better chance of them reproducing than if there were none to reproduce with.

So, is this a lost cause? What would you do in this situation if there are no unrelated animals to breed with? As far as I know there are a few clutches from the same parents but that is it. Would it be best to try and breed two from separate clutches? Breed the female to the dad? Wait it out and hope to hell more get imported at some point possibly never getting to try and breed? Or, chalk it up to this being my bad luck with these rarer species and just enjoy them while they are alive and go back to panthers? Damn, it always seems with this rarer stuff I get two females, two males or this or that, that results in me not being able to breed them. Unfortunately there arent many species out there that I am interested in that arent from Tanzania.

I did get a nice Bairds Rat Snake the other day. Maybe Ill just keep these two and go on to trying something else

Thanks for sharing your experience. It really helps us all to learn from someone experienced and not just hobby breeders with strong opinions.

 

[sandrachameleon]

...I have two CB K. matschiei (Giant Fischers) which are from the same clutch. As far as I know there are none out there that are unrelated or maybe 1 or 2.

ouch, that's a tough one. If you are unable to source another animal unrelated, or less related, I would understand your considering breeding the two you have. You'd have to accept there could be consequences. And even if your offspring are seemingly okay, what do you do after that? The next generation you'd be facing an even more difficult decision. But maybe by then you'd have found another less related animal?

 

[Cainschams]

ouch, that's a tough one. If you are unable to source another animal unrelated, or less related, I would understand your considering breeding the two you have. You'd have to accept there could be consequences. And even if your offspring are seemingly okay, what do you do after that? The next generation you'd be facing an even more difficult decision. But maybe by then you'd have found another less related animal?

Ugh!!! I know!! Im not sure what I would do in that case but I think trying it once would be worth it since it would give me more time to find unrelated ones.

I also wonder about the veileds. They dont export WCs anymore. Were there that many back before they stopped exporting them that still to this day you can find truly unrelated specimen? I would think by this point they would all have some type of relation, although it would be further apart than direct siblings.

Id also not be too sad if Tanzania never exported any chams again. Sucks for us who REALLY love the species that comes from there but its much better for the animals.

 

[AllFallDown]

ouch, that's a tough one. If you are unable to source another animal unrelated, or less related, I would understand your considering breeding the two you have. You'd have to accept there could be consequences. And even if your offspring are seemingly okay, what do you do after that? The next generation you'd be facing an even more difficult decision. But maybe by then you'd have found another less related animal?

This is purely a personal thought and not specific to chameleons. If they were the last two in the species, it would seem to me that attempting to breed them and produce as large an F2 generation as possible would make sense to save the species.

In this case, I would ask myself the following questions:
1) Where might these genetics possibly end up? Do I want to distribute the offspring?
2) What is my motivation for considering inbreeding and what could be the long term consequences? Is that fair to the chameleons?
3) Are the chameleons being helped by this action or hurt.
4) is this nessasary?
5) who is benefitting from this action.

Just things I would think about. I am mainly thinking purely from a more philosophical perspective with an eye toward conservation. In no way shape or form am I any kind of expert on breeding anything besides perhapes carnivorous plants.

If it were me, I don't think I would do it. Even if export of the species were stopped indefinitely unless the species were severely threatened. I would be too concerned about possible genetic consequences. If I did think it was a good idea, I would call an expert on genetics and biology to get their thoughts first. Again though, I am not a biologist so my understanding here could be off. I am mostly thinking about all of this from a mathematical standpoint.

 

[jaglon53]

Ugh!!! I know!! Im not sure what I would do in that case but I think trying it once would be worth it since it would give me more time to find unrelated ones.

I also wonder about the veileds. They dont export WCs anymore. Were there that many back before they stopped exporting them that still to this day you can find truly unrelated specimen? I would think by this point they would all have some type of relation, although it would be further apart than direct siblings.

Id also not be too sad if Tanzania never exported any chams again. Sucks for us who REALLY love the species that comes from there but its much better for the animals.

I wish Ed Kammer would give some insight on this as they have said they work with a closed breeding colony. He has told me there wouldn't be a problem breeding the father with one of his offspring. I myself have never done this but they have been in business longer than most and I'm sure they would have some good information for you.

 

[AllFallDown]

Ugh!!! I know!! Im not sure what I would do in that case but I think trying it once would be worth it since it would give me more time to find unrelated ones.

I also wonder about the veileds. They dont export WCs anymore. Were there that many back before they stopped exporting them that still to this day you can find truly unrelated specimen? I would think by this point they would all have some type of relation, although it would be further apart than direct siblings.

Id also not be too sad if Tanzania never exported any chams again. Sucks for us who REALLY love the species that comes from there but its much better for the animals.

Well, something else that concerns me is entitlement. Should we have the ethical right to potentially weaken a genepool like that because we want them as pets. If tbe consequences to the F1 generation are as severe as suggested, I would be very concerned about this. Of course, this assumes we actually weaken the genepool which is kind of gbe topic at hand.

 

[Chris Jury]

I'm struck by the degree of hyperbole in some of the posts above, especially given the degree of understanding of genetics and inbreeding depression expressed in those same posts.

First things first: *all* members of a species are related (as are members of different species). Whenever two inviduals of any species breed there is a chance that they will both be carriers of one or more nasty, recessive alleles. In that case, we'd expect about 1/4 of their offspring to get two copies of a nasty allele, and incur whatever sort of problems result. No matter how closely or distantly related the individuals, this is always a possibility.

The chances that two individuals will both be carriers for the same nasty allele increases as their relatedness increases. However, it's a crap shoot. It's possible for two essentially unrelated individuals to both be carriers for a nasty allele whereas two siblings have no particularly problematic alleles in common. Regardless of the parentage, however, sometimes individual offspring will be born 'not quite right' or clearly deformed and the only sensible thing is to cull such individuals.

In cases where the option to outbreed exists (and for Panthers there are lots, and lots of individuals, so outbreeding is no problem) I sure as heck would do it. Breeding closely related individuals (e.g., siblings, parent-offspring, etc.) takes the unnecessary risk of producing a proportion of the unviable or less vigorous offspring.

However, in the case with the K. matschiei mentioned above, there is no other option. What do we have, two known pairs of this species in captivity in this country? Inbreeding is going to be required to establish this species, at least until additional broodstock can be brought in. We'd definitely expect reduced genetic diversity of this species in captivity and, if a wild population were reduced to only four individuals, the chances of survival would be grim. However, in captivity we can baby our animals and phenotypes that might be deleterious in nature (e.g., slow predator avoidance response) are irrelevant in captivity. It's absolutely feasible that a viable captive population could be produced from these four animals, especially if effort is placed on breeding the most distantly related individuals, and much more so if some unrelated individuals can be brought into the captive breeding pool in the future. A smaller but still very useful tactic to enhance the viability of the captive population would be to get the size of the breeding population as large as possible. If we have a few hundred animals, even if they are all descended from four, the population will be much more viable than if we have eight breeding animals all descended from four.

The entire Jackson's chameleon population in the Hawaiian Islands, and most of the ones in the U.S. mainland are descendents from a single group of ~12 individuals. Those few expanded to much larger populations of many thousands, but nonetheless they're still doing fine after 30 odd generations. I'm sure they have much lower genetic diversity than the ones back on Mt. Kenya, and would probably be more vulnerable to problems such as disease outbreaks, but nonetheless, 30+ generations is hard to snub ones nose at, especially when our concern is simply having viable captive populations.

Hope that helps,

Chris

p.s. And guys, please for the love, breed those K. matschiei! They are at the top of my list of species I hope to work with one day, and it's going to be at least a couple of years before I move back to the mainland

 

[AllFallDown]

Hmmmm.... I started to rethink my arguments. Not sure I believe all of them....

When you refer to hyperboles, are you referring in part to my posts? If so I am not speaking in hyperboles- at least not intentionally (not in the same sense that a lawyer does at least). Ill be honest, I think I went down one of my philosophical tangents like I tend to do. Disregard about half the ap-cray I said.... I need to reexamine my first principles when I am not so sleep deprived (pulled an all nighter last night...).

 

[DanSB]

Were the chameleons F1 or more generations down the line, Jim? Just wondering and if it was already posted sorry

So, here is my problem. I have two CB K. matschiei (Giant Fischers) which are from the same clutch. As far as I know there are none out there that are unrelated or maybe 1 or 2. Tanzania is no longer exporting and they never really did export many of this species when they were. I wanted a male and female in case if/when the time comes to breed there are none I can find that are unrelated. My thoughts were/are that I would have a better chance of them reproducing than if there were none to reproduce with.

So, is this a lost cause? What would you do in this situation if there are no unrelated animals to breed with? As far as I know there are a few clutches from the same parents but that is it. Would it be best to try and breed two from separate clutches? Breed the female to the dad? Wait it out and hope to hell more get imported at some point possibly never getting to try and breed? Or, chalk it up to this being my bad luck with these rarer species and just enjoy them while they are alive and go back to panthers? Damn, it always seems with this rarer stuff I get two females, two males or this or that, that results in me not being able to breed them. Unfortunately there arent many species out there that I am interested in that arent from Tanzania.

I did get a nice Bairds Rat Snake the other day. Maybe Ill just keep these two and go on to trying something else

Thanks for sharing your experience. It really helps us all to learn from someone experienced and not just hobby breeders with strong opinions.

When I asked if this was specific panthers I specifically was wondering about Kinyongia and Bradypodion species. I am very interested in breeding both in the future along with a few others that you just can't get.

I think you have little choice but to try and see what happens. I honestly don't know what the 12 were species wise that Jim had failure on (I am guessing Panther) but it is likely this could be species specific intolerance and not applicable to ALL chameleon species.

It is also likely it is the entire Family and anyone who entertained dreams of owning a K. matschiei is SOL when the current groups are done breeding. (I have a breeder just 30 minutes away maybe I should jump on the next group of babies?)

I suspect the the governments of Tanzania and South Africa would not make exceptions for experienced breeders in the us? At least not without a ton of time and money!

 

[Chris Jury]

When you refer to hyperboles, are you referring in part to my posts?

Ha, no, I thought your posts were thoughtful

 

[AllFallDown]

Ha, no, I thought your posts were thoughtful

Oh ok, thanks, just wanted to make sure. Some of my comments seemed a bit iffy

Its an interesting topic for sure. Seems to really draw in a lot of different philosophical questions. Where I am kind of getting hung up now is how one should think about a captive population, and what an appropriate breeding paradigm would look like. What should we ethically take into consideration when designing such a program. For instance, if we assume that animals do have rights, do wild populations have different rights than captive populations? If so, why? This has been a very stimulating discussion. Always a pleasure hanging out on CF!

 

[Killer Chams]

damn, i guess i started a good little debate here.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Good post Chris!

I'd also like to point out that the OP said Nosy Mitsio, these are not as inbred as many other available panthers like Nosy Be because they are relatively new to the scene. Despite being Islanders and who knows how inbred they are already.

I think if the OP has no other options and wants to breed, if he can cull weak individuals if the situation arises, then that's his prerogative and he has every right to do so....so long as he is responsible. I would question his ethics if he did any inbreeding beyond the one pair though.

The Jackson's in Hawaii have their cruel decisions made by nature for the weak ones; it's a judgement call the individual has to be capable of making.

Good example is Koi and Dog breeding. In days gone by, people weren't so empathetic towards animals. Any animal that wasn't desirable was culled, there are lots of cool pics of koi breeders in the breeding pools tossing undesirable fish in nets to sun-dry as they pick out the weak and/or undesirable fish. Now because of empathy and profit (both are to blame), you have thousands of people breeding dogs and koi without culling and now we have bug-eyed monstrosities.

I'd also like to know what animals were bred in the 12 inbred clutches....were they F1 or F5 or unknown lineage and origin? Mitsio I think are okay right now, if this thread was originally about Nosy Be, my opinion would simply be 'No.'

All I know is that this happens all the time unknowingly. I had some people buy a male Nosy Be last year, and this kid bought a female.

The people with the male emailed me telling me they found a female, and that it was from so-and-so. It wound up being the kid with the female selling it on the local classifieds. So I let them know. If they hadn't of emailed me all excited about the new female, they would have been breeding brother and sister without ever knowing it. I know breeders who will buy ANYTHING they can find on the classifieds and will breed without even questioning the lineage.

IMO if you have the integrity to know your lines, are able to spot weakness, and have the guts to kill cute baby chameleons, then yes, inbreed as a last resort or to isolate desirable traits in the hobby.

Any length of inbreeding is bad, but once in a while - considering the lines - is acceptable.


I also say breed the matschiei! As long as you're methodical and diligent, Chris is right on.

PS Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants alive today which is nearly 10% of the current population in that region, for the person who was questioning the Borneo-Madagascar research I mentioned earlier. And you can bet that % concentration was a much higher number when he was around rapin yo peoples up.

Good discussion.

 

[AllFallDown]

damn, i guess i started a good little debate here.

Absolutely, great topic!

It kind of got me thinking about what the relationship is between genetic diversity and genetic legacy. I am doing some work on the side with endangered American carnivorous pitcher plants. One theme that seems to pop up regularly is the preservation of genetic legacy- IE the importance of keeping the localized site genetic pure and intact.

What I caught myself thinking with chameleons is, as we all know there are many different locales of panther chameleon. Lets say hypothetically, the panther chameleon population has dwindled down to a handful of remaining members. Lets even go as far as to say that there is only one male/female pair left per locality. Here is the question. You are on a taskforce charged with rescuing the native panther chameleon population. You have a choice:

1) Try to preserve the genetic legacy of the panther chameleons by only breeding those localized pairs and this restricting the genetics to one pair of members
2) Try to increase genetic diversity of the species overall by interbreeding them and arguably strengthening the genes of the F1 generation.

Lets assume that we are considering the ultimate future of the wild populations so we either want to preserve legacy or not.

This senario seems to ask some interesting questions about where our priorities should lie with respect to genetics in a conservation situation.

 

[AllFallDown]

Good post Chris!

I'd also like to point out that the OP said Nosy Mitsio, these are not as inbred as many other available panthers like Nosy Be because they are relatively new to the scene. Despite being Islanders and who knows how inbred they are already.

I think if the OP has no other options and wants to breed, if he can cull weak individuals if the situation arises, then that's his prerogative and he has every right to do so....so long as he is responsible. I would question his ethics if he did any inbreeding beyond the one pair though.

The Jackson's in Hawaii have their cruel decisions made by nature for the weak ones; it's a judgement call the individual has to be capable of making.

Good example is Koi and Dog breeding. In days gone by, people weren't so empathetic towards animals. Any animal that wasn't desirable was culled, there are lots of cool pics of koi breeders in the breeding pools tossing undesirable fish in nets to sun-dry as they pick out the weak and/or undesirable fish. Now because of empathy and profit (both are to blame), you have thousands of people breeding dogs and koi without culling and now we have bug-eyed monstrosities.

I'd also like to know what animals were bred in the 12 inbred clutches....were they F1 or F5 or unknown lineage and origin? Mitsio I think are okay right now, if this thread was originally about Nosy Be, my opinion would simply be 'No.'

All I know is that this happens all the time unknowingly. I had some people buy a male Nosy Be last year, and this kid bought a female.

The people with the male emailed me telling me they found a female, and that it was from so-and-so. It wound up being the kid with the female selling it on the local classifieds. So I let them know. If they hadn't of emailed me all excited about the new female, they would have been breeding brother and sister without ever knowing it. I know breeders who will buy ANYTHING they can find on the classifieds and will breed without even questioning the lineage.

IMO if you have the integrity to know your lines, are able to spot weakness, and have the guts to kill cute baby chameleons, then yes, inbreed as a last resort or to isolate desirable traits in the hobby.

Any length of inbreeding is bad, but once in a while - considering the lines - is acceptable.


I also say breed the matschiei! As long as you're methodical and diligent, Chris is right on.

PS Genghis Khan has 16 million descendants alive today which is nearly 10% of the current population in that region, for the person who was questioning the Borneo-Madagascar research I mentioned earlier. And you can bet that % concentration was a much higher number when he was around rapin yo peoples up.

Good discussion.

I need to think about this and post back tomorrow (if I remember...). Something in your argument is sending off my spidey sense but I cant quite put my finger on it. It has something to do with how you seem to be comparing the practice of inbreeding within a captive population where breeding patterns are specifically restricted and monitored and these huge macroscopic cases of "mass incest" where:
1) such breeding restrictions are not in place- at least not to the same degree, thus genetic recombinations end up filtering out a lot of those poorly expressed genes (I think...), I am not so sure this same thing applies to chameleons bred in captivity, that would require a little more justification.
2) In these cases you have mentioned, incest is done more so out of either necessity(I would argue this in the case of Madagascar) or near impossible alternatives (Genghis Khan's Children).

"Any length of inbreeding is bad, but once in a while - considering the lines - is acceptable."

I am still not completely sure what your point is. Is your point that producing a child with your sister will not end the world? Is it that such a child will not be born with tentacles and red glowing eyes? (Ok, that was kind of a hyperbole... not sure if it is by definition but in the spirit)

I agree! As I said in my first or second post, the effects of inbreeding may not manifest themselves in the F1 generation. I guess in the case of chameleons they sometimes do (or at least there are consequences associated with inbreeding which show up in the F1 generation ). My point all along is that as a general practice- not a good idea! Why practice inbreeding when we generally don't have to? If what has been said about the infertile eggs and birth defects is true, why knowingly put these animals through that? If you are aware that such a thing can occur and viable alternatives do exist- then inbreeding like that how are you much different in your regard for their lives than a kid that gets a chameleon and sends it down the street on a skateboard? In both cases, the welfare of the animal is taking a back seat.

"IMO if you have the integrity to know your lines, are able to spot weakness, and have the guts to kill cute baby chameleons"
Really, read this line again, who's needs are being respected here? Is this attitude that we are really about?


Inbreeding HAS been shown to have negative consequences! Can you find case studies where bad stuff did not happen? I am sure you can! You can also find case studies of people who smoke heavily every single day and live to be over 100- that does not mean you can draw any meaningful conclusions based on it. These case studies do not change the fact that it is a practice that can lead to genetic problems down the road. When you say that it is acceptable once in a while, what do you mean exactly? My main point is, don't make a practice of it. It should probably be a last resort for rescue work. If you are going to argue this point on the basis of artificial selection then please reread my comments about Dalmatians because that will be my counterexample. If you want to call it acceptable, please clarify because that is very vague.

 

[Cainschams]

And you can bet that % concentration was a much higher number when he was around rapin yo peoples up.

Good discussion.

LMAO!!!!

Thanks for your replies, guys. I too think of the jacksonii in HI and also the other very small, isolated populations. Honestly, I would breed them if that is the last resort. I have no problems with culling weak or unfit animals either. I did find out that todnedos pair is completely unrelated. Although, that only gets us so much further along if they are still around when its time to breed. Not to mention he probably wont want to stud his male out to every person that has them. Just way too much trouble. Thankfully, my mom lives only 40 minutes from him and I am only 3.5 hours from there. Now I am hoping I have two females and his male wont take much persuasion to breed when the time comes.

Definitely a much better thread/debate than the other threads like this I have read.

 

[Kibu]

Check these mutations out !!!