Is chleo impacted or possibly have eggs?

[Nicca90]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, female, and 9-10 months old. Since December 2015 has been in my care
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Rarely handle her as she has gone back and forth on if she likes to be held or not. I waited for months because she really did not want to be held at first and then for a while(after I started feeding her beetles) she was totally fine with us and didnt mind being held or hiss at us at all. Now she is back to hissing and trying to bite us.
• Feeding - Mostly mealworms, they are bred in house and I need them all kinds of different fruits/veg/oats/Bran and sprinkle with calcium powder. I have tried giving her fruit also but she has only gone for strawberries so far.
• Supplements -Dust worms with calcium powder
• Watering - I have a 'big dripper' and mist the cage about four or so times a day. She doesn't seem to use the dripper at all I have given her a handful of showers to get her to drink more.
• Fecal Description - Brownish black with little white looks a little compact, it used to be larger and look more wet.
• History - I have recently put a 'bin' in her cage with play sand, she is not a very active chameleon she loves to walk around on my hands/arms/head if she decides to let me hold her.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - medium zoo med chameleon kit, screen enclosure, 16.1 x 1 x 1
• Lighting - duo dome light one uvb and one basking heat bulb. Uvb stays on always and the heat light goes on around 730 and off around 830
• Humidity -I use a guage to measure humidity, usually stays just under or above 60
• Plants - I have three live plants, pothos, Schefflera, Dracaena
• Placement - Her cage sits on a small table about 3 feet off the ground. She is in a sort of dining room, not near windows or vents.
• Location - Iowa

Current Problem -I have a 9-10 month old female chameleon and she had recently started acting different than usual. She has been sleeping some during the day and at times she doesn't mind if we touch her she won't even wske up and other times if we get to close to hershe will hiss and try to lunge to bite. She seems much more tired than normal and she hasn't shed for over a week which is odd for her also. She has still been eating fine and drinking like normal ( it's always been tough to get her to drink). I guess I am mostly concerned about her sleeping during the day. She also appears to maybe be bloated or possibly have have eggs, however I cannot tell for sure. I thought maybe could be a small impaction or something to, it looked like she was straining earlier. I misted some warm water on her to see if that helped but no luck as of yet. I recently put a Bing in her cage thinking she may have some eggs in her belly but again I'm not sure how to tell. He colors have been very pretty lightish green and not dark. This evening around 330 or so my boyfriend came home and she was hanging above her bin like she was doing a pull up. He helped her onto the vine but she stayed there hanging upside down at the bottom of the cage for hours . I have been putting frozen jugs in there to keep the temperate down and she had her head touching the jug, this concerned me because she felt very cold to the touch, I moved her towards her heat light and she stayed there and shortly began what looked to me like straining. I have posted some pictures of her and her cage to help figure out if there is something wrong that I can help. Thank is in advance for any replies I am concerned for chleo!

 

[Nicca90]

This is her hanging above her bin today

 

[Peachypink]

The one thing I see that needs to be fixed now is that you leave the UVB light on always. They need the dark to sleep. If it is on all the time then she is not getting adequate sleep at night and is causing her to sleep during the day and can cause several other issues because of it. It needs to be on a day/night schedule too.

She definitely looks pudgy but I have no experience with females and I'm sure there is someone else on here that can advise you on that part of it.

 

[Peachypink]

Also, what are the temps in the enclosure? Basking spot and ambient temp?

 

[Theveiled]

Do you only feed mealworms? She needs a variety of feeders. Mealworms can also cause impaction because they have a hard exoskeleton

 

[jajeanpierre]

This is her hanging above her bin today

She looks to me that she might be egg bound or having trouble laying those eggs.

I had a female gracilior lay a clutch of infertile eggs off branches and she used gravity to help. I had her in and out of the vets over about four or five days as she laid the clutch. We ended up giving her oxytocin on the second or third day I think. She only dug a hole after all her eggs were laid and then spent a couple of days in labor for non-existant eggs.

I also had another female that was in a lot of pain and wouldn't dig and lay. We ended up giving her oxytocin but it was a disaster and we euthanized maybe five days later although she laid the clutch very quickly.

I don't know what is going on but a couple of things are big red flags to me.

First red flag is her sleeping during the day and lethargy. Sure, your UVB light shouldn't be on during the night, but I don't think that going to cause her to sleep during the day. I wonder what your cage temps are when you need a big block of ice to keep it cool enough. If you have to use ice to cool the cage, why do you have a heat/basking bulb turned on?

The second is her hanging over the laying bin. I've seen two chameleons who didn't dig a hole to lay eggs and both used or tried to use gravity to get the eggs out. Both ended up getting oxytocin, one lived and the other did not. Others have been incredibly restless and seemingly uncomfortable for up to a week but have laid normally. They might need to move around to get the eggs in position to be laid. I suspect fitness is an issue with laying problems. She has a head up posture on her branch, which might be just a coincidence or it might be her aligning her body such that gravity helps get those eggs out.

I would recommend she go to an experienced reptile vet. At the very least I suspect she needs subcutaneous fluids and calcium. Labor and laying eggs uses a tremendous amount of calcium, taking it from the blood stream. If they use up all their available blood serum calcium, their muscles fail and they can't get their eggs laid. The digestive tract can only absorb so much calcium from the gut so she might need a boost with it mixed in with fluids (never inject calcium directly--it needs to be diluted). She might need Oxytocin, too, but that is a really really rough drug and very hard on them. In my experience (using it three times, once being when a vet overdosed with the drug because someone wrote the wrong weight down in her chart), it takes days to get out of their system. Maybe it is just my species, a montane, that has so much trouble metabolizing it. (I think I'll start a thread on oxytocin.)

When you are deciding a course of treatment, it is always wise to have a plan of how much money you are prepared to spend because it is very easy to agree in the moment when emotions are running high to treatment after treatment that quickly adds up to a lot more than your budget. I don't know where you are located or how much a good reptile vet in your area costs, but ball park numbers would be about $60 or so for an office visit and around $80 for an xray. Subcutaneous injections will be in the $20 to $50 range, add another $20 for calcium. Your initial visit for dystocia (obstructed labor) will run you about $140. It could be less or more, but it isn't astronomical. That's the bare minimum treatment. There could also be surgery which has a very poor prognosis. The sooner an animal goes into surgery, the better the prognosis. Quite often people wait too long so the animal goes into surgery in critical condition. If you are going to do surgery and oxytocin doesn't work, don't wait.

Dystocia--when they can't lay their eggs--is not something you allow to continue. You treat or you euthanize. A chameleon will linger for a tremendous amount of time and die a long, slow very awful death.

I hope everything works out for your girl. Keep us posted.

 

[Nicca90]

Thank you for the replies! I will definitely start keeping both of her lights off at night as for her temperature I have a digital thermometer and it is 75 toward the middle 65-70 at the bottom and the top basking spot is at 95. I will also start feeding her more of a variety I was giving her crickets alot too at first but we don't have any pet shops nearby so I stuck with the mealworms. Has anyone ever bought feeders online? The closest pet shop is about 30 min away and they don't have much of a selection so I have thought of buying online but I'm not sure what site is reputable. Thanks again for the replies I hope this clears one things up!

 

[Nicca90]

Wow jajeanpierre thank you for your very detailed response! I was concerned when it got so hot out around here (in the upper 90s) we have our air on but it still seemed to warm, I first kept her basking light off but then read how people have used the ice jugs if it is better to keep the light off that works too but I felt like it would be better to have the light on if I could help it. Would it be wise to go ahead and make an appointment now since she has been acting this way or should I give her a little time to see if she goes ahead and lays eggs in her own?

 

[Nicca90]

I've also seen people cover the cage with fabric so they have privacy do you think I should try this to see if that's what she needs to start or anything else I could do to help her feel more comfortable? I will call a vet today but I don't want to bring her and stress her out more if it isn't necessary.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I've also seen people cover the cage with fabric so they have privacy do you think I should try this to see if that's what she needs to start or anything else I could do to help her feel more comfortable? I will call a vet today but I don't want to bring her and stress her out more if it isn't necessary.

Privacy wouldn't hurt.

Here's a tip to reduce the stress of a vet visit. Put her in a travel box--a small tote the size of a shoe box as long as she has air holes and you can securely close it. Put in some wads of damp paper towels. Put that box inside a dark cloth bag so she will shut down and go to sleep. When you get to the vet's do not allow the techs to examine or weigh her even though they will pressure you to allow them to see her. I usually have an accurate weight so they use the weight I give them. I do the initial consultation with the techs verbally. When the vet comes in we go through the whole thing again with the chameleon still safely stowed (and asleep in the dark) in the travel box. Only after we have discussed every concern I have and what I think might be going on and what is bothering me do I bring out the chameleon. The vet will examine them and if they don't need some sort of treatment, they go right back in the box in the dark. Then the vet and I discuss how to approach the problem. I make sure everything is done at once, quickly and then the animal is put back in the dark. Sometimes you have to stand up to vet techs.

Your temps seem too high to me, especially for a female. You want to keep a female veiled much cooler and feed less so she doesn't lay lots of big clutches. In general, all female chameleons will die of reproductive problems, so reducing the number of clutches and the number of eggs in each clutch will keep your girl around a lot longer. They need bright light (UVA) in order to be active and eat, but she might not need any heat, so think about how much heat that bright (daylight) bulb is putting into the cage.

Yes I order all my feeders online. Nick Barta for things like stick bugs and bean beetles. Coastal Silkworms for silkworm eggs and silkworm food and Ghann's crickets for crickets and superworms whenever I buy them. I get my black soldier fly larvae from my own compost bin and grow them out to flies. I don't kow if it would be worthwhile to order crickets online because you would be ordering in lots of 1000. You will have to figure out whether or not it is worth it considering the cost of shipping.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Wow jajeanpierre thank you for your very detailed response! I was concerned when it got so hot out around here (in the upper 90s) we have our air on but it still seemed to warm, I first kept her basking light off but then read how people have used the ice jugs if it is better to keep the light off that works too but I felt like it would be better to have the light on if I could help it. Would it be wise to go ahead and make an appointment now since she has been acting this way or should I give her a little time to see if she goes ahead and lays eggs in her own?

What is she doing now her temps are better? Was she just in heat distress? Can you post a picture of her face and her back and pelvis so I can get an idea of her hydration levels. If she is dehydrated, I would take her in.

Only you can judge, but if she is hanging on the branches as if she is trying to defecate but isn't, I might be tempted to go in to a reptile vet, preferably one who has experience with chameleons. It all depends on how important she is to you. It is not wrong to allow her to continue on trying to lay eggs if that is what she is doing and not suffering from heat stress which would usually show up as a blanched pale coloring as long as she is in good condition, hydrated, etc. Don't be fooled by a bright green healthy color. They can be critical and still a good color, usually a heightened color but not necessarily a dark stressed color.

 

[Peachypink]

@jajeanpierre
Thank you for weighing in on this! I do not have experience with females and was hoping someone would come and help her!

@Nicca90 this woman knows her stuff! She will give you solid, well experienced advice. Good luck with your girl! I really hope she gets better!

 

[Nicca90]

Wonderful! I truly appreciate the response! She was doing well this morning, she was awake and drank some water before I left for work. I have called a vet that is only about 40 or so minutes away and they said they care for exotic animals so I am going to see how she is doing when I get home from work and if she is still acting off I plan to bring her in on Tuesday next week. She has had the ice jugs in her cage for about a week or so now, but I will turn off her heat light though too and see how she reacts to that and how much the overall temperature changes. I will take some better pictures of her this evening as well to see what you think thanks again! So glad to have found this forum!!

 

[Nicca90]

@jajeanpierre
Thank you for weighing in on this! I do not have experience with females and was hoping someone would come and help her!

@Nicca90 this woman knows her stuff! She will give you solid, well experienced advice. Good luck with your girl! I really hope she gets better!

thank you so much for everything! I appreciate it

 

[jajeanpierre]

@jajeanpierre
Thank you for weighing in on this! I do not have experience with females and was hoping someone would come and help her!

@Nicca90 this woman knows her stuff! She will give you solid, well experienced advice. Good luck with your girl! I really hope she gets better!

Thank you for the compliment but be very very wary of trusting strangers on the internet!!!

I have some experience and I think I've been honest about the experience I have but you really don't know that. I could be a complete fraud or just plain wrong.

I once killed an wonderful young African Grey Parrot for following very experienced parrot keepers' advice they gave me over the internet. "Everyone" gives chicken bones to their Greys. Against my better judgment I followed "everyone's" advice and the animal died of toxic shock within 48 hours. It was made worse because my vet was closed by the authorities (I was in Saudi Arabia at the time) and it took me another day to find a falcon expert who worked for two hours desperately trying to save him. This vet--who has since become a dear, dear friend--asked me in a kind, nonjudgmental voice, why had I given him chicken bones to chew on. I listed off all the benefits "everyone" on the internet had given me. He listened and then quietly listed off the nutritional components of what he had ingested and stated--all the while not screaming at me YOU ARE AN IDIOT! and to this day I am thankful he didn't tell me his true feelings--there were safer ways for the bird to get that nutrition. Then he proceeded to explain how a falcon can be critically ill in 24 hours after eating too big a meal and it starting to decompose in their crop causing toxic shock. What was even worse was that "everyone" who had advised me to let him have chicken bones continued to advocate chicken bones for African Greys so my bird's death didn't do a thing to change people's husbandry methods even though it was clearly wrong.

So, be cautious making life and death decisions based on some anonymous person's advice on the internet.

 

[Peachypink]

Thank you for the compliment but be very very wary of trusting strangers on the internet!!!

I have some experience and I think I've been honest about the experience I have but you really don't know that. I could be a complete fraud or just plain wrong.

I once killed an wonderful young African Grey Parrot for following very experienced parrot keepers' advice they gave me over the internet. "Everyone" gives chicken bones to their Greys. Against my better judgment I followed "everyone's" advice and the animal died of toxic shock within 48 hours. It was made worse because my vet was closed by the authorities (I was in Saudi Arabia at the time) and it took me another day to find a falcon expert who worked for two hours desperately trying to save him. This vet--who has since become a dear, dear friend--asked me in a kind, nonjudgmental voice, why had I given him chicken bones to chew on. I listed off all the benefits "everyone" on the internet had given me. He listened and then quietly listed off the nutritional components of what he had ingested and stated--all the while not screaming at me YOU ARE AN IDIOT! and to this day I am thankful he didn't tell me his true feelings--there were safer ways for the bird to get that nutrition. Then he proceeded to explain how a falcon can be critically ill in 24 hours after eating too big a meal and it starting to decompose in their crop causing toxic shock. What was even worse was that "everyone" who had advised me to let him have chicken bones continued to advocate chicken bones for African Greys so my bird's death didn't do a thing to change people's husbandry methods even though it was clearly wrong.

So, be cautious making life and death decisions based on some anonymous person's advice on the internet.

Thanks for the warning. Being on this forum for a few years I have seen many of your posts and see that you don't just say "here's what you need to do" but you back it up with personal experience and research and recommend taking them to a vet. I don't see you try and get your opinion to count over a vet's advice and that is what I appreciate but I also have seen you have lots of experience with female veileds. All these is why I gave you the compliment. I try not to comment a lot even though I am confident in my keeping skills, I am always learning. I do see too many out there that just repeat what they have seen others say and sometimes it is bad advise that has just been passed down. You should absolutely always do your research and seek a vet. I was not trying to say you have the be all end all of chameleon advise, I was just glad to see that someone helped her and that it was someone who has the history that you have.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for the warning. Being on this forum for a few years I have seen many of your posts and see that you don't just say "here's what you need to do" but you back it up with personal experience and research and recommend taking them to a vet. I don't see you try and get your opinion to count over a vet's advice and that is what I appreciate but I also have seen you have lots of experience with female veileds. All these is why I gave you the compliment. I try not to comment a lot even though I am confident in my keeping skills, I am always learning. I do see too many out there that just repeat what they have seen others say and sometimes it is bad advise that has just been passed down. You should absolutely always do your research and seek a vet. I was not trying to say you have the be all end all of chameleon advise, I was just glad to see that someone helped her and that it was someone who has the history that you have.

Again, thank your for the compliment.

Just to clarify--I have zero experience with adult, egg-laying female veileds. My one female veiled--my first chameleon--was lost at under a year of age when my husband opened the outdoor cage she was in to take out a plant, not even thinking there was a chameleon in there. Why in the world he thought a chameleon wouldn't be in a chameleon cage is beyond me. The cage had basically a forest touching the top of it and I never found her. Looked for weeks. My experience is with T. q. quadricornis and T. q. graciliors. I'm tinkering with live bearing T. hoehnelii and C. malthe but I've only had those since April.

 

[Nicca90]

Ok so I just got home and she is laying in her bin now and she is asleep again I took some pictures and hope they can help but I don't want to move her so I can get more later if that would help. By the way how can you tell if she is dehydrated? I know by the eyes sometimes if they are sunken is this right? I out a blanket around her cage. I am hoping that since she had been in the bin twice now that's a good sign but still I'm not sure.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Ok so I just got home and she is laying in her bin now and she is asleep again I took some pictures and hope they can help but I don't want to move her so I can get more later if that would help. By the way how can you tell if she is dehydrated? I know by the eyes sometimes if they are sunken is this right? I out a blanket around her cage. I am hoping that since she had been in the bin twice now that's a good sign but still I'm not sure.

She's in serious trouble. Get her to a vet as soon as possible, like tonight. She needs care now, not Tuesday.

 

[Nicca90]

I feel like she is trying to have them now maybe she is hanging from her cage with her butt in the sand. Fingers and toes crossed!!!