Is it good to have substrate

[jamest0o0]

And yes we should all beware of what information we receive. I would like to know who among those making the argument for a bio active system is a veterinarian or microbiologist or what veterinarian or microbiologist said it was a safe and a good alternative to a bare bottom.

That's like saying a fish tank should just be empty, that it doesn't benefit from the nitrifying bacteria in the liverock and substrate. It is the same concept with soil. Sure, water adds some variables, but coming down to cleanliness, they do the same thing. But I'm sure you know nothing about that as well. And I do not think there is a devoted bioactivity course in vet school, but maybe I'm wrong? Either way, this isn't super complicated stuff, you don't need a degree to know how this works.

You're the one making insane claims that are very far off, you should be the one trying to prove your point. Show me some articles on how bioactivity is a septic system and where it has harmed a chameleon?

 

[jamest0o0]

Read the attached post from Erklerose about veiled chameleons and how bioactive systems are not good for them, since they have a propensity toward eating substrate.... The original question was about whether a bio active system is recommended for a veiled chameleon. So no, I also would not recommend a bio active system for her veieled chameleon. I guess you need to do some more reading.

You're linking another member to prove your point to another member you disagree with? Good one kiddo. And BTW, the member you screenshotted follows me on here lol... I know many people that keep veiled bio(I do agree, with veileds, be aware of choking hazards!), but if you're not comfortable so be it. You still haven't proved your wildly ignorant claims.

 

[jamest0o0]

@snitz427 not to draw you into this, but you keep veileds on bio... how are they doing?

 

[jamest0o0]

*To be clear to anyone that doesn't do bio, this isn't an attack on people that aren't using it, it is me defending bio from BS. Newbs will read this and they can't always tell who joined here a month ago and who joined over 10 years ago. We all have our reasons... some like it, some don't, but saying things that are incorrect doesn't help anyone and just sets our community back.*

 

[snitz427]

Wow. Lotta misinformation in here. Bioactive is intended to create a small, balanced ecosystem within the enclosure - which replicates nature and the wild as closely as we can.

yes, that means the keeper doesn’t need to clean up disgusting wet paper towels - loaded with BAD bacteria, feces, dead bugs, etc. A big perk of bioactive is that the insects and microbes in the soil keep everything spick n’ span. The water typically drains into a separate catch can which is emptied regularly. That water is run through the soil and drainage layer.... where plants drink up the nutrients and flourish as a result. The soil a s drainage layer filter the water on the way down. It’s not toilet water - think of it like the water table that is NATURALLY underground outside. Of course - that water is going through even more filtration and depth outside.

How can you imagine that is less sanitary? Try an experiment yourself - poop and pee on a paper towel in your bedroom, and leave it there a few days. Now try pooping and peeing into a bucket of soil with a (big) clean up crew. Which one is nastier after a few days??

Aside from the benefits of bioactive being more sanitary, and less maintenance, it is more NATURAL for the chameleon.

Bioactive soil helps maintain and stabilize humidity. It enables healthier, more natural, and faster plant growth. It allows bacteria and microbes to be naturally cycled and counter balanced by each other and the clean up crew.

Aside from that, it is a more naturalistic environment for your chameleon. They live in trees, bushes, scrub, etc. Many with field expeditions find them at eye level, sometimes lower. The do come down to the ground to travel, hunt, and lay their eggs (and I’d love to do some research on eggbinding in chams in bio vs 12” laybin).

I have 17 chameleons currently, including 9 babies, and every one of them is in bioactive soil. I also have numerous insect colonies that are also thriving in bioactive setups. There is a very noticeable POSITIVE reaction to putting a chameleon in a bioactive enclosure from non-bio. At first they are intrigued and curious - noticeably more active. They get excited by isopods and may spend time entertaining themselves with them. The climb walls less and almost instantly feel more content in their enclosure.

To say bioactive is nasty and unsanitary means you have either never tried it, did it horribly wrong, or don’t understand it. I don’t recognize the other members name you quoted as your reference / back up... I may be wrong, but I believe that is a newer member. You might want the opinions of keepers who have been bioactive for years rather than someone who has never done it.

 

[GrayMadder]

Wow. Lotta misinformation in here. Bioactive is intended to create a small, balanced ecosystem within the enclosure - which replicates nature and the wild as closely as we can.

yes, that means the keeper doesn’t need to clean up disgusting wet paper towels - loaded with BAD bacteria, feces, dead bugs, etc. A big perk of bioactive is that the insects and microbes in the soil keep everything spick n’ span. The water typically drains into a separate catch can which is emptied regularly. That water is run through the soil and drainage layer.... where plants drink up the nutrients and flourish as a result. The soil a s drainage layer filter the water on the way down. It’s not toilet water - think of it like the water table that is NATURALLY underground outside. Of course - that water is going through even more filtration and depth outside.

How can you imagine that is less sanitary? Try an experiment yourself - poop and pee on a paper towel in your bedroom, and leave it there a few days. Now try pooping and peeing into a bucket of soil with a (big) clean up crew. Which one is nastier after a few days??

Aside from the benefits of bioactive being more sanitary, and less maintenance, it is more NATURAL for the chameleon.

Bioactive soil helps maintain and stabilize humidity. It enables healthier, more natural, and faster plant growth. It allows bacteria and microbes to be naturally cycled and counter balanced by each other and the clean up crew.

Aside from that, it is a more naturalistic environment for your chameleon. They live in trees, bushes, scrub, etc. Many with field expeditions find them at eye level, sometimes lower. The do come down to the ground to travel, hunt, and lay their eggs (and I’d love to do some research on eggbinding in chams in bio vs 12” laybin).

I have 17 chameleons currently, including 9 babies, and every one of them is in bioactive soil. I also have numerous insect colonies that are also thriving in bioactive setups. There is a very noticeable POSITIVE reaction to putting a chameleon in a bioactive enclosure from non-bio. At first they are intrigued and curious - noticeably more active. They get excited by isopods and may spend time entertaining themselves with them. The climb walls less and almost instantly feel more content in their enclosure.

To say bioactive is nasty and unsanitary means you have either never tried it, did it horribly wrong, or don’t understand it. I don’t recognize the other members name you quoted as your reference / back up... I may be wrong, but I believe that is a newer member. You might want the opinions of keepers who have been bioactive for years rather than someone who has never done it.

This sounds like it's good enrichment too
I definitely want to go bioactive for all my enclosures.

 

[snitz427]

@snitz427 not to draw you into this, but you keep veileds on bio... how are they doing?

the freakin’ love it. They are the only species I have that actively hunts for isopods. They will flip leaves over to get them. Its very mentally stimulating for them. They never eat dirt. They may occasionally pick up a piece of leaf debris (just like they occasionally tear a live leaf when snagging a bug)... they just spit it out.

they were kept on paper towels the first 5 - 6 months of life, and their reactions made me smile... and got me a little sad. They were noticeably more content in their new bioactive enclosures. Much less stressed by me cleaning their cages weekly, too.

My female Clarice (the guard dog of the group) uses and patrols every square inch of her 2x2x4 enclosure. She spends a surprising amount of time at the bottom patrolling. Not only looking for egg spots or bugs. She especially loves playing in the mud and a little puddle that develops during long (5 min+) mistings. The little dirtball immediately goes to the soil when the mister kicks on and just tracks through the mud and tiny puddle. Then when she has had her fun, she goes back up under the mister and then the basking spot to complete her spa day mudmask. At first I thought it was a funny incident - but she follows the routine almost every misting. Maybe she likes the way the wet soil feels beneath her toes - idk... but its cute.

 

[snitz427]

Also - not a morning person. I typed that with one eye open in bed. Typos and attitude come with the pre 12pm territory.

 

[Andrew1283]

I would like to know if anyone has sent a soil sample from a, “healthy” bio active habitat to their veterinarian or a microbiologist for microscopic bacterial analysis to confirm if in fact good (non harmful) bacteria has wiped out (or mitigated to the point of harmlessness) the abundance of harmful bacteria in that soil. As we all know, feces is primarily comprised of bacteria. Human septic systems use digestive bacteria to break it down into a somewhat harmless but still disgusting and smelly substance. If you were to stick that substance in an open wound or ingest it I guarantee you’re going to the hospital! That process is done (commercially) with state of the art equipment and by trained professionals. If you have ever opened a septic tank you know it still smells like a load of poop. If anyone has send a sample to their vet or a microbiologist please let me know.

 

[jamest0o0]

I would like to know if anyone has sent a soil sample from a bio active habitat to their veterinarian for bacterial analysis under a microscope to confirm if in fact good (non harmful) bacteria has wiped out the abundance of harmful bacteria in the soil. As we all know, fences is primarily comprised of bacteria.

I would love to see someone send a sample of the barebottom enclosure. And also, it doesn't take a vet to use a microscope. Many people here use them. You're coming off like someone jealous TBH.

 

[GrayMadder]

I would like to know if anyone has sent a soil sample from a bio active habitat to their veterinarian for bacterial analysis under a microscope to confirm if in fact good (non harmful) bacteria has wiped out the abundance of harmful bacteria in the soil. As we all know, fences is primarily comprised of bacteria.

I dont get your logic, but that being said... Its okay to express your opinion on a matter ( i.e. that you clearly don't like bioactive enclosures, which is completely fine.) But to put out false info saying it's bad for your chameleon is not going to help the members make an informed decisions on their options.

If you have an opinion, by all means express it. But don't push out your opinions as fact.

 

[jamest0o0]

I think this guy is a troll. "Smelly mess like a septic tank"... have you ever been out in the woods where millions of organisms regularly create waste? Does it smell like a septic tank? If so, I suggest you get help.

 

[jamest0o0]

Apparently this guy knows something that the majority of European and many americans do not. All this time, the most successful reptile keepers and breeders in the world were wrong. They've been killing their animals with septic waste.

 

[GrayMadder]

Apparently this guy knows something that the majority of European and many americans do not. All this time, the most successful reptile keepers and breeders in the world were wrong. They've been killing their animals with septic waste.

We've also been killing chameleons because we give them water.... we ALL know chameleons don't need water because they absorb it through the humidity.

 

[snitz427]

I would like to know if anyone has sent a soil sample from a, “healthy” bio active habitat to their veterinarian or a microbiologist for microscopic bacterial analysis to confirm if in fact good (non harmful) bacteria has wiped out (or mitigated to the point of harmlessness) the abundance of harmful bacteria in that soil. As we all know, feces is primarily comprised of bacteria. Human septic systems use digestive bacteria to break it down into a somewhat harmless but still disgusting and smelly substance. If you were to stick that substance in an open wound or ingest it I guarantee you’re going to the hospital! That process is done (commercially) with state of the art equipment and by trained professionals. If you have ever opened a septic tank you know it still smells like a load of poop. If anyone has send a sample to their vet or a microbiologist please let me know.

I really think you do not understand how bioactivity works. My chameleons’ poop is devoured and digested by the various insects living in the soil within 1-2 days.

you keep referencing human septic systems ... you do realize they use microbes, fungi, etc to break all that down, right?

I do not think you really understand this topic. This is like “don’t let your kids play outside because there are germs” logic. I’ll get the scientific soil analysis done when you try my papertowel / bucket expirement.

 

[MissSkittles]

Wow! Just wow!
I keep my veileds in bioactive enclosures and honestly, it’s hard to tell if they prefer them over bare floor. I do know that at least one has enjoyed making her isopods into snacks whenever she’s felt like it. I have all of my enclosures in my bedroom...there’s no odor and aside from the rare escaped isopod, no adverse effects. Actually, all except my panther cham and beardie are bioactive and I can say my leopard geckos definitely enjoy the enrichment.
Now, my roach colonies are a different story altogether. Since making them bioactive, there have been more babies and less die offs. Has definitely been a huge positive. I have been keeping my crickets bioactive for the past month or so and that too has been going great. No odor! Very little die off and increased life spans.
If you don’t like bioactive, stick with your paper towels. If you want to criticize bioactive, try learning exactly how it works...other wise

 

[Sonny13]

the freakin’ love it. They are the only species I have that actively hunts for isopods. They will flip leaves over to get them. Its very mentally stimulating for them. They never eat dirt. They may occasionally pick up a piece of leaf debris (just like they occasionally tear a live leaf when snagging a bug)... they just spit it out.

they were kept on paper towels the first 5 - 6 months of life, and their reactions made me smile... and got me a little sad. They were noticeably more content in their new bioactive enclosures. Much less stressed by me cleaning their cages weekly, too.

My female Clarice (the guard dog of the group) uses and patrols every square inch of her 2x2x4 enclosure. She spends a surprising amount of time at the bottom patrolling. Not only looking for egg spots or bugs. She especially loves playing in the mud and a little puddle that develops during long (5 min+) mistings. The little dirtball immediately goes to the soil when the mister kicks on and just tracks through the mud and tiny puddle. Then when she has had her fun, she goes back up under the mister and then the basking spot to complete her spa day mudmask. At first I thought it was a funny incident - but she follows the routine almost every misting. Maybe she likes the way the wet soil feels beneath her toes - idk... but its cute.

Hopefully spotting my beauty queen doing the same soon

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

but where would the water go

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

It's not a septic tank, its an eco system.

Umm... a properly designed & functioning septic system IS an ecosystem.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/septic-system-basics-zmaz02onzgoe

A septic system is more than a disposal system -it's a living ecosystem.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

will making the enclosure bio-active save a lot of time, and if i do not what will i pt on the bottom of the enclosure to ensure that there is no bacteria to harm my vieled chameleeon

Bioactive or not can be (not is) a Con-Sub. Personally, I'm on the fence; I believe they're fine for some reptiles (and keepers) IF (big "if") well-designed, well set up, and well-maintained. For others (like me) they're a potential catastrophe. That's just me acknowledging my own limitations.

I think the biggest issue I have is when some say they require little/no maintenance.
Bioactive Vivarium Maintenance 101 — Yes, They Do Require Maintenance!

My bearded dragon has a rough-texture ceramic tile substrate that is both easy to clean/sanitize with a wipe, spritz, and another wipe—and running around on the rough textures keep his nails short & maintained.

My chameleon has a screen/egg crate substrate that catches solids, but lets liquids through to the drain pan below. Weekly pickup of his solids and a spritz keep his enclosure clean & sanitized.

OTOH, my Missus is in the process of getting a tortoise, and due to their care requirements, I don't see any alternatives to a bioactive enclosure.