Is it weird my chameleon likes to cuddle

This thread is 3 yrs old incase you did not see. I am sure by now her chameleon is deceased if she kept doing what she is doing in the picture. Not recommended wrapping the poor thing in a towel.


Yes I did realize. But, I feel that there is a lot of over speculation on this forum and site in general. I went to my local reptile specialist and he told me that the most dangerous place to be for a reptile is on a forum lol because most of this stuff is based on opinion and not on science. I personally don't come here for advice really, just like to look at pictures and cham setups. Animals behave differently when raised in captivity. If chameleons are not normally social in the wild, then it's obviously different in captivity because they cuddle and are social with their owners. I don't think it's weird at all when someone tries something new and that it must mean the cham will die because it's unusual behavior for THEIR cham or ones they've seen. My cham likes being sprayed with warm water. She doesn't mind it. Cold is a different story, she hates that. So being wrapped in a warm towel might be soothing. My cham rubs her belly on my furniture and paces around like a dog before she gets settled and sleeps. It's really up to the cham. All chams have different personalities. People have to stop treating and saying things that would only pertain to the wild chams. Like "if I stick my finger near my cham she thinks it's a snake." Dori (my cham) doesn't even know what a snake is. She's never seen one. So maybe she gets a little like, "oh man, it's rushing me and I'm a slow creature so that's way too fast" lol. But she responds to slow movements. If I just stick my hand in there all fast, she doesn't like it, but if I do it slow so she can see it, then she's cool. I'm just saying, not everything on this forum is correct and every chams likes and dislikes are different upon a number of factors.
 
IMG_20160525_204421.jpg IMG_20160530_075600.jpg Screenshot_2016-06-03-09-02-28.png Screenshot_2016-06-03-09-23-02.png Screenshot_2016-06-03-09-23-13.png This is Dori and her free range setup. It will eventually be a lot bigger, I want it to take up that entire corner. She's got her dripper in there. No need for a humidifier because she doesn't seem to mind the temp. The breeder we got her from said that's pretty overrated anyways. He food is in a clear bowl hidden in the back because I don't want people freaking out when they see it lol. She loves the Baby Tears plant. She ate them up so I have to get more. She eats when she wants, comes down when she wants and she's always, always, that pretty green. The one with her on my hand, well, she crawled on, held on tight (I could feel her tightening her grip) and fell asleep. She loves to be held and explore. She never gets down from her free range. And she looks at us all the time whenever we eat. She's nosey. lol love my lil schmookums.
 
You can tell yourself whatever you want to in order to anthropomorphise your chameleon. The members on this site are basing their answers on decades of experience with these animals, and they have helped countless members and their animals avoid and correct health issues. One chameleon out of 10000 does not indicate an acceptance of handling. But the 9999 that do not appreciate handling indicate that it isn't healthy for them. If you choose to disregard the knowledge of those who have been raising these animals since before you were likely born that's your prerogative but don't assume that the forum is wrong because you didn't receive the answer you wanted.
 
You can tell yourself whatever you want to in order to anthropomorphise your chameleon. The members on this site are basing their answers on decades of experience with these animals, and they have helped countless members and their animals avoid and correct health issues. One chameleon out of 10000 does not indicate an acceptance of handling. But the 9999 that do not appreciate handling indicate that it isn't healthy for them. If you choose to disregard the knowledge of those who have been raising these animals since before you were likely born that's your prerogative but don't assume that the forum is wrong because you didn't receive the answer you wanted.

lol that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying everyone on here is wrong.. I'm saying everyone is so quick to say that people's chams are going to die and are rude about it. A lot of people on these sites are children as well, so it's not decades. I'm not going to argue, I'm just saying, to give advice, people need to learn to listen FIRST. Discernment is key to analyzing any situation. I see so many on these sites being badgered, told they are bad handlers, told their cham is going to die, told they are irresponsible.. blah blah. It's so sad for someone to come for help, then immediately be torn down by those they want advice from. That's not making it a comfortable environment. Chameleons aren't robots. They all have personalities of their own. I say, if you have issues, go to a vet.
 
A lot of the members on here aren't children, and have been keeping reptiles and chameleons for decades. Also, people aren't always good at reading a chameleon's body language. One of their stress reactions, to a situation they cannot get away from is to close their eyes and shut down. So, the reaction of closing their eyes and going to sleep may be something completely different than the owners believe. I'm not saying that's what's happening with your animal, but it's something to be aware of.
 
A lot of the members on here aren't children, and have been keeping reptiles and chameleons for decades. Also, people aren't always good at reading a chameleon's body language. One of their stress reactions, to a situation they cannot get away from is to close their eyes and shut down. So, the reaction of closing their eyes and going to sleep may be something completely different than the owners believe. I'm not saying that's what's happening with your animal, but it's something to be aware of.


Thank you for that. See, this is how to respond. Nicely done :)
 
There are more and less tactful ways to give someone news they don't want to hear. Some of us are better at it than others. Also, a lot can depend on an OP's approach and tone in their posts. Some start right off with attitude or pretty closed minds, and their reactions to advice can add to a wrong perception held by other members. The vast majority of members on this forum want only the best for anyone's chams...we are passionate because we CARE about their animals and don't want them to have miserable lives. It comes down to risking insulting someone and or saying nothing with the realization that their cham will probably be dead or sick if no one takes that chance. Most of us are very soft hearted when it comes to chams and their people.

I've heard many new members say that this forum is one of the friendlier ones out there. The background knowledge of an individual forum member also colors how they respond to newbie posts too. For example (I'm not trying to brag), I am a wildlife biologist by profession, and have spent the past 40 years working on all sorts of wildlife and exotic animal issues that spill over into my hobbies keeping birds and herps. So, I try very hard to base my advice on a professional understanding of animal behavior, scientific reasoning and credible information instead of emotion...if I give my "opinion" but don't have facts to back it up, I'll state so right up front.
 
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View attachment 159133 View attachment 159134 View attachment 159135 View attachment 159136 View attachment 159137 This is Dori and her free range setup. It will eventually be a lot bigger, I want it to take up that entire corner. She's got her dripper in there. No need for a humidifier because she doesn't seem to mind the temp. The breeder we got her from said that's pretty overrated anyways. He food is in a clear bowl hidden in the back because I don't want people freaking out when they see it lol. She loves the Baby Tears plant. She ate them up so I have to get more. She eats when she wants, comes down when she wants and she's always, always, that pretty green. The one with her on my hand, well, she crawled on, held on tight (I could feel her tightening her grip) and fell asleep. She loves to be held and explore. She never gets down from her free range. And she looks at us all the time whenever we eat. She's nosey. lol love my lil schmookums.

You are anthropomorphising, that animal. Chameleons like all reptiles do not have human emotions. And whether they are captive bred or wild caught they still have there instincts, even dogs that have been bred and maintained in captivity for 1000s of years still hold on to a portion of instinct.

You say a specialist said forums doesn't base of science? Which is also quite funny as some "Specialists" have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. We just had someone a few days ago that took there cham to a "Specialist" Vet, and he told the guy to stop giving the cham live food. Well chameleons do not eat non live food. On top of that we have "Specialists" here as well, so?

Moving on, you keep him in that free range all day? Where is the UVB light? Where is the basking Light? How do you mist and maintain humidity? Nothing wrong with a Free Range IMO. If it is done right, which yours I see no lights, not enough shrubbery and am curious how you keep up humidity.

Also the cham sleeping and all the lights on? was that during the day? He also doesn't have his tail curled while he was asleep which is odd.

So some science now.

Science says you need a UVB light, which I don t think you have.
Science says you need a basking light again not sure you have.
Science says he needs water not in a bowl but sprayed/ and humid, which I dont think you are doing.
Science says chameleons can see light while they sleep, and this can cause them to not get good sleep.
Science says if that cham is sleeping during the day it is sick.

And the breeder you got her from that said humidity is not needed for a RAIN FOREST ANIMAL is an idiot. You may not need a fogger, (those suck, and likely what they meant) you do need some way to raise the humidity and drop it to the animals needs. Your dripper is good to have along with spraying the corner 3 times a day with a mister.
 
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Not disagreeing with most of your post but Veiled Chameleons are native to the Arabian Peninsula, Yemen and Saudi Arabia. They are found in many different areas including arid climates. It's what makes them a hardier species.

The climates they range from are South Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. Where you are right most of that country is arid desert, there is rain forests where they reside. I have never seen anything to suggest they live in the deserts of Arabia. They are still a tropical animal.

I will agree they can make do with less humidity than a panther ect, they still need more than none.

If you have something stating they live in the Arid Arabian desert I would love to see it. That would also mean that veilieds can live in a non arboreal setup. As the arid places have no trees.

I do know and agree, with there varied climates. As in the beaches and mountain ranges, however those are varying temperatures with similar rain falls/humidity. That allows them to be more hardy with temp ranges, not water needs.
 
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The chameleon is not like a Taco or Burrito,and I know Im from the future 2016 talking about this to the missing people from 2013, unless the cham is bleeding or dying,I will never wrapped them up in a towel,let Alphakenc put it this way....
Do you guys put a blanket on your chameleon when they go to sleep???
How about some water bed n pillow too huh???
 
You are anthropomorphising, that animal. Chameleons like all reptiles do not have human emotions. And whether they are captive bred or wild caught they still have there instincts, even dogs that have been bred and maintained in captivity for 1000s of years still hold on to a portion of instinct.

You say a specialist said forums doesn't base of science? Which is also quite funny as some "Specialists" have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. We just had someone a few days ago that took there cham to a "Specialist" Vet, and he told the guy to stop giving the cham live food. Well chameleons do not eat non live food. On top of that we have "Specialists" here as well, so?

Moving on, you keep him in that free range all day? Where is the UVB light? Where is the basking Light? How do you mist and maintain humidity? Nothing wrong with a Free Range IMO. If it is done right, which yours I see no lights, not enough shrubbery and am curious how you keep up humidity.

Also the cham sleeping and all the lights on? was that during the day? He also doesn't have his tail curled while he was asleep which is odd.

So some science now.

Science says you need a UVB light, which I don t think you have.
Science says you need a basking light again not sure you have.
Science says he needs water not in a bowl but sprayed/ and humid, which I dont think you are doing.
Science says chameleons can see light while they sleep, and this can cause them to not get good sleep.
Science says if that cham is sleeping during the day it is sick.

And the breeder you got her from that said humidity is not needed for a RAIN FOREST ANIMAL is an idiot. You may not need a fogger, (those suck, and likely what they meant) you do need some way to raise the humidity and drop it to the animals needs. Your dripper is good to have along with spraying the corner 3 times a day with a mister.
I agree that they don't have the same emotional capacity as humans due to the lack of the limbic system, but we do share some of the most basic ones like fear and aggression. Parts of our human brain still resemble the brains our reptilian forefathers. These include the brain stem (pons and medulla) and cerebellum. They basically control body functioning and muscle movement, but reptile owners and handlers at zoo's still claim that reptiles can like some people more than others and even share bonds with these reptiles. Here is a brief article about that.

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions

A couple days ago I was watching a tv show on Netflix called animals gone wild. A family living in a primative hut in Malaysia had a wild 19 foot 200 pound Burmese Python invade their home. They started feeding it and the snake stuck around and they consider it their pet. Their 8 year old child calls it his best friend and literally crawls on its back rides it around. Holds the snakes face up to his face and hugs it. The snake could easily eat the kid but doesn't seem to mind slithering around with this child attached to it. Maybe he doesn't attack the family because they feed it and it's well fed, but it just goes to show that certain reptiles (even wild ones) can have tolerant behaviors towards humans and possibly even like being around them. If a different 19 foot 200 pounder came into the village, they might not of been able to air that portion of the show on TV.

I had the opportunity of taking care of a 12 foot albino Burmese Python for 4 years while I was in college. She was our fraternity's mascot (Sigma Nu snakes) and was raised there since she was a baby. I fed her well and would take her out frequently to be handled. She was so long that I had to hoist her over my head, and then wrap her around my body in order to move her around the house or take her outside. She never once tried to bite me, or try to constrict me while she was wrapped around my body. I felt like we had a mutual agreement: I feed you and take care you, you don't attack me. She was pretty friendly and would let anyone hold her when she was out. I definitely grinned every time some sorority girls wanted a group picture with my snake :) There was just something about seeing 5-8 cute girls all dressed up standing shoulder to shoulder with their arms out holding a 12 foot Python. But she did bite a guy on his hand that thought he could just go into her cage and grab her. Definitely wasn't jealous that he got to feel those recurved teeth! (Kind of went on a tangent remembering how awesome it was back in the glory days at Penn State)

My point that I was trying to make was I felt like that snake and I shared a bond and had mutual respect for each other. I also feel this way about my veiled chameleon Herbert. He's sitting on top of his cage just chilling and staring at me while I've been writing this post. I saw that he wanted to come out, so I let him out. If it makes him happy to sit there on top of his cage, no harm in letting him do it (he doesn't climb on the lights so don't worry about him getting burnt).
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Learning the body language of reptiles is a key element in caring for them since they can't communicate how they're feeling with words. I hope that you don't feel like I'm antropomorphising these animals by saying that we shared a bond or had a mutual respect for each other. I don't expect the snake to call me up and ask how I've been doing the past 10 years or Herbert to go to the store and buy me a birthday card, but I do feel like the can recognize their owners or caretakers and treat people differently.
 
I got my chameleon about 3 weeks ago and he's super sweet and is really getting attatched to me which I didn't think could occur! And now he likes to cuddle and be wrapped up in a warm towel and take naps when he cuddles! I'm not complaining at all ! Just wondering if anyone else's chameleon does this :)
Yes it's weird. And the responder is correct. What you are doing is called "anthropomorphising". It is where you apply human manifestations of emotions and behaviors and "project" their causes and meanings onto the outward behaviors and characteristics of non-human organisms. While such comparisons are at times oddly accurate and at best humorous in their inaccuracy, at worst they are insane if you think about it, to treat an animal like a human and impose human expectations upon them. So again a moderate response to the question is it weird to think a chameleon wants to snuggle with a human, or just simply that a human considers that statement to be completely true: That IS weird.
 
I agree that they don't have the same emotional capacity as humans due to the lack of the limbic system, but we do share some of the most basic ones like fear and aggression. Parts of our human brain still resemble the brains our reptilian forefathers. These include the brain stem (pons and medulla) and cerebellum. They basically control body functioning and muscle movement, but reptile owners and handlers at zoo's still claim that reptiles can like some people more than others and even share bonds with these reptiles. Here is a brief article about that.

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions

A couple days ago I was watching a tv show on Netflix called animals gone wild. A family living in a primative hut in Malaysia had a wild 19 foot 200 pound Burmese Python invade their home. They started feeding it and the snake stuck around and they consider it their pet. Their 8 year old child calls it his best friend and literally crawls on its back rides it around. Holds the snakes face up to his face and hugs it. The snake could easily eat the kid but doesn't seem to mind slithering around with this child attached to it. Maybe he doesn't attack the family because they feed it and it's well fed, but it just goes to show that certain reptiles (even wild ones) can have tolerant behaviors towards humans and possibly even like being around them. If a different 19 foot 200 pounder came into the village, they might not of been able to air that portion of the show on TV.

I had the opportunity of taking care of a 12 foot albino Burmese Python for 4 years while I was in college. She was our fraternity's mascot (Sigma Nu snakes) and was raised there since she was a baby. I fed her well and would take her out frequently to be handled. She was so long that I had to hoist her over my head, and then wrap her around my body in order to move her around the house or take her outside. She never once tried to bite me, or try to constrict me while she was wrapped around my body. I felt like we had a mutual agreement: I feed you and take care you, you don't attack me. She was pretty friendly and would let anyone hold her when she was out. I definitely grinned every time some sorority girls wanted a group picture with my snake :) There was just something about seeing 5-8 cute girls all dressed up standing shoulder to shoulder with their arms out holding a 12 foot Python. But she did bite a guy on his hand that thought he could just go into her cage and grab her. Definitely wasn't jealous that he got to feel those recurved teeth! (Kind of went on a tangent remembering how awesome it was back in the glory days at Penn State)

My point that I was trying to make was I felt like that snake and I shared a bond and had mutual respect for each other. I also feel this way about my veiled chameleon Herbert. He's sitting on top of his cage just chilling and staring at me while I've been writing this post. I saw that he wanted to come out, so I let him out. If it makes him happy to sit there on top of his cage, no harm in letting him do it (he doesn't climb on the lights so don't worry about him getting burnt).
View attachment 159210
Learning the body language of reptiles is a key element in caring for them since they can't communicate how they're feeling with words. I hope that you don't feel like I'm antropomorphising these animals by saying that we shared a bond or had a mutual respect for each other. I don't expect the snake to call me up and ask how I've been doing the past 10 years or Herbert to go to the store and buy me a birthday card, but I do feel like the can recognize their owners or caretakers and treat people differently.
I agree with you except for the part where You suggest "parts of the human brain" resemble our "reptilian forefathers ".
 
I agree that they don't have the same emotional capacity as humans due to the lack of the limbic system, but we do share some of the most basic ones like fear and aggression. Parts of our human brain still resemble the brains our reptilian forefathers. These include the brain stem (pons and medulla) and cerebellum. They basically control body functioning and muscle movement, but reptile owners and handlers at zoo's still claim that reptiles can like some people more than others and even share bonds with these reptiles. Here is a brief article about that.

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions

A couple days ago I was watching a tv show on Netflix called animals gone wild. A family living in a primative hut in Malaysia had a wild 19 foot 200 pound Burmese Python invade their home. They started feeding it and the snake stuck around and they consider it their pet. Their 8 year old child calls it his best friend and literally crawls on its back rides it around. Holds the snakes face up to his face and hugs it. The snake could easily eat the kid but doesn't seem to mind slithering around with this child attached to it. Maybe he doesn't attack the family because they feed it and it's well fed, but it just goes to show that certain reptiles (even wild ones) can have tolerant behaviors towards humans and possibly even like being around them. If a different 19 foot 200 pounder came into the village, they might not of been able to air that portion of the show on TV.

I had the opportunity of taking care of a 12 foot albino Burmese Python for 4 years while I was in college. She was our fraternity's mascot (Sigma Nu snakes) and was raised there since she was a baby. I fed her well and would take her out frequently to be handled. She was so long that I had to hoist her over my head, and then wrap her around my body in order to move her around the house or take her outside. She never once tried to bite me, or try to constrict me while she was wrapped around my body. I felt like we had a mutual agreement: I feed you and take care you, you don't attack me. She was pretty friendly and would let anyone hold her when she was out. I definitely grinned every time some sorority girls wanted a group picture with my snake :) There was just something about seeing 5-8 cute girls all dressed up standing shoulder to shoulder with their arms out holding a 12 foot Python. But she did bite a guy on his hand that thought he could just go into her cage and grab her. Definitely wasn't jealous that he got to feel those recurved teeth! (Kind of went on a tangent remembering how awesome it was back in the glory days at Penn State)

My point that I was trying to make was I felt like that snake and I shared a bond and had mutual respect for each other. I also feel this way about my veiled chameleon Herbert. He's sitting on top of his cage just chilling and staring at me while I've been writing this post. I saw that he wanted to come out, so I let him out. If it makes him happy to sit there on top of his cage, no harm in letting him do it (he doesn't climb on the lights so don't worry about him getting burnt).
View attachment 159210
Learning the body language of reptiles is a key element in caring for them since they can't communicate how they're feeling with words. I hope that you don't feel like I'm antropomorphising these animals by saying that we shared a bond or had a mutual respect for each other. I don't expect the snake to call me up and ask how I've been doing the past 10 years or Herbert to go to the store and buy me a birthday card, but I do feel like the can recognize their owners or caretakers and treat people differently.

I do not think that you are antropomorphising by your post. The snake can share a bond of respect or trust in a way. However this isnt becomes the snake "Loves" you or even "Likes" you. He sees you as a food source, a means to gather things that are needed.

Its the same way with handling a chameleon, they do not want to be "held" they tolerate it to achieve there needs, "if he holds me I get some real sunlight outside". There is a bond of trust that is built and can quickly be lost. This is the case with all wild animals, they see you as a tool to get what they need, nothing more nothing less. If you prove to be a good tool, and show that being handled is part of the equation they will accept that, and may even show behaviors to encourage your affection to become a better tool.

That does not mean, the snake or chameleon has feelings for you. All too many times when I kept snakes I seen that happen. People would have a snake, usually a large one. And would claim my snake loves me, then one day they have a 26 foot python latched on there arm constricting them. Some dogs also show this, pit bulls are a good one. They can be a great loyal dog, then one day snap and tear someone apart.

At the end of the day a wild animal is a wild animal and should also be treated as such. To humanize and place your self in a false sense of security or acceptance is a bad idea and with some animals can be dangerous or even fatal.

As to the OP post, no lizard wants to be wrapped in a blanket. They are cold blooded they do not receive heat that way, nor do they want to. That is humanizing the animal. People do the same thing with dogs, by putting clothes on them. They do not want to wear clothes you want them to, they may tolerate it that doesn't mean you should do it or that they enjoy it.
 
I agree with you except for the part where You suggest "parts of the human brain" resemble our "reptilian forefathers ".
My bad. I know that they don't look the same. What I meant was that we share some of the same parts and that these parts in our brain evolved over millions of years, but came from when reptiles ruled the planet. Thanks for correcting me (y)
 
I cant belive my ancestors was bunch cold blood reptiles....I like the adam n eve apple better,snake can wait.....
 
The climates they range from are South Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. Where you are right most of that country is arid desert, there is rain forests where they reside. I have never seen anything to suggest they live in the deserts of Arabia. They are still a tropical animal.

I will agree they can make do with less humidity than a panther ect, they still need more than none.

If you have something stating they live in the Arid Arabian desert I would love to see it. That would also mean that veilieds can live in a non arboreal setup. As the arid places have no trees.

I do know and agree, with there varied climates. As in the beaches and mountain ranges, however those are varying temperatures with similar rain falls/humidity. That allows them to be more hardy with temp ranges, not water needs.

The word "desert" was never used by me. I said arid, meaning drier . I agree that there are varied climates in the Arabian Peninsula, however none of them seem to have the 86-145 inches of annual rainfall to qualify as a "rainforest". You called the poster an idiot for not having a fogger, I was just saying that the ambient humidity in her home may be well within the level needed for a chameleon who thrives in Saudi Arabia, therefore a dripper and periodic showers would be fine. I think some people overdo humidity for that species, basically turning the cage into a sauna. A lot of what you have said I completely agree with, I just think it is better received if the info is a little less harsh...
 
I know it can be hard to avoid attributing human reasoning, thoughts, and emotions to animals. Humans are wired to do this, but it really does a diservice to both yourself and the animal you might be taking care of.

For me, a lot of my enjoyment of having reptiles is learning how they think and react to the world around them. I like setting up their enclosure as close to their natural environment as possible and seeing how their adaptations work, whether it's watching a Veiled Chameleon's casque funnel water to its mouth, or a Blue Tongue Skink slide through leaf litter and moss.

These are all amazing creatures and deserve to be respected as what they are. They aren't humans or dogs, but I don't think that means you can't have a relationship with them. It just means it's all on you to do the work. Chameleons don't have a need for relationships, so it's important that every keeper learns how they think, what their priorities are, and cater to them.

We keep them for our pleasure, so I think we owe it them at least the respect of acknowledging their chameleon-ness.
 
My bad. I know that they don't look the same. What I meant was that we share some of the same parts and that these parts in our brain evolved over millions of years, but came from when reptiles ruled the planet. Thanks for correcting me (y)
Don't say my bad. I for the most part just make pithy,semi-snarky comments combined with small nuggets of truth. I love chameleons and observing their unique characteristics and behaviors. I actually was mocking the pedantic was that SOME posters wax poetic and slay the dragons of the common owners with their eccentric knowledge of the secret world of chameleons.
To be completely honest. If not for anthropormophification of my own chameleon and other assorted menagerie of organizims from plants to reptiles, mammals and my children. No wait, my children are human so anthropormophification would be redundant, any way, I wouldnt practice the husbandry of said organisms. I talk to my chameleon. My plants. Actually scientific research has proven that "speaking to" plants and animals increases mortality and health.
I have in depth conversations with my plants and animals, if only to satisfy my own human desire to validate the relationship I feel I share with them, and to fill the human need for social interaction through a playful, metaphorical level with myself between the organisms I care for and my own conception of my own existence, giving a sense of purpose to my life through a feeling of connection to the world in which I live. I recite them poetry. Read from the great works of literature. And tell them my deepest secret hopes fears and desires.
You go on and anthropomorphism the hell out of your chameleon, and if you kill him cuddling with him in a blanket, who's to say you didn't both go down trying!
 
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