is my chameleon okay? what should i do?

[salmonsalmon]

hey everyone, after the loss of another pet i decided to adopt soren, a male veiled, from my local pet store. i got him super little, not even the size of my finger and he’s grown a little bit.

he’s always been curious, catching bugs on his own with his tongue (no tongs or anything) and active. recently though, i’ve noticed a shift in him and i’m becoming worried

he’s been more lethargic, still having a good grip on this with his tail/hands but just keeping his eyes shut alot and being at the bottom of his cage.

i tried changing his bulbs already, giving him water and crickets (he really does drink from a bowl, i think it’s what he was used to from a pet store, doesn’t use any droppers. he eats full sized crickets, small ones now being enough for him.), working with humidity and temperatures, but he still just doesn’t act like himself.

his eyes aren’t sunken or anything, he just seems to sleep during day hours (atleast keep his eyes shut) and gravitate to the bottom more than the top.

i’m aware he looks thin, is this a super big issue or normal for their size? he has always been thinner like this since we adopted him.

also, his color has been lighter, not dark at all. sometimes just light green and one other time even lighter than that. im aware that the back piece looks dirty, it gets cleaned everytime he eats the crickets, it’s just junk left by them while they’re there

in any case, is there something i’m doing wrong? is he just growing? should i take him in? i’m nothing but worried, anything would be useful, thank you.

 

[ERKleRose]

Welcome on here, I wish it was under better circumstances! Sadly Soren needs an experienced chameleon vet. If you don’t already have one, let us know, and we can help you find one! Bring a fresh poop with you to help rule out parasites, as you never know with pet store chameleons. His eyes are sunken in and he’s thin, the loose skin around his limbs is not normal. Are his ankle and leg bones bendy in any way, or does it just look like that from the loose skin?

 

[ERKleRose]

If you could fill this out in as much detail as possible, it’ll help us find any problem areas (if there are any at all!) in your husbandry. Pics of his entire enclosure, lights to bottom, will be a big help, too! Just copy and paste the form, and then fill it in:

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[salmonsalmon]

Welcome on here, I wish it was under better circumstances! Sadly Soren needs an experienced chameleon vet. If you don’t already have one, let us know, and we can help you find one! Bring a fresh poop with you to help rule out parasites, as you never know with pet store chameleons. His eyes are sunken in and he’s thin, the loose skin around his limbs is not normal. Are his ankle and leg bones bendy in any way, or does it just look like that from the loose skin?

i’m in brighton michigan area, any recommendations would be helpful. do you know what’s exactly wrong with him? i’m really worried, i don’t know how this happened

 

[jpm995]

I'm no expert but i think he has mdb a bone disease that's very serious. His legs look like their weird angles. There's more knowledgeable experts on here that can confirm. In any case a herp qualified vet visit would be necessary the sooner the better. Just his symptoms are very troubling and they can go downhill fast. Good luck with your cham.

 

[ERKleRose]

This clinic is on the Chameleon Forums vet list, they’re in Williamston: https://www.cedarcreekvet.com/
What’s going on with Soren could be a multitude of different things, which is why a vet is needed, as they have the tools and experience, along with being face to face, to help you the best
Filling out the husbandry form will help us see if there’s any issues in your husbandry that we can tweak to care for Soren

 

[salmonsalmon]

If you could fill this out in as much detail as possible, it’ll help us find any problem areas (if there are any at all!) in your husbandry. Pics of his entire enclosure, lights to bottom, will be a big help, too! Just copy and paste the form, and then fill it in:

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, male, juvenile. in my care since baby from petstore
• Handling - not often, only taken out to get used to people and not hiss
• Feeding - adult crickets, 36 are purchased weekly and put into his cage. 7 then refill when he eats them
• Supplements - zoo med repti-calcium with d3, every 2 weeks
• Watering - a bowl (he does drink from it, have seen) and misting with fogger everytime humidity drops (fogger only at night)
• Fecal Description - brown, not had one in some time though, never been tested either
• History - no past health problems

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen, not sure the dimensions, alot of it was given to me by a friend
• Lighting - using zoo med repti basking spot lamp (75w) and aqua culture daylight bulb (75w) for lighting. schedule is lights on at 6AM then off at 10PM
• Temperature - i have a temperature thermometer in cage, it gets up to about 80° on a cool day and 91° on a hot day. around 77° at the bottom of the cage.
• Humidity - average is 30° when not misted and 70° when misted, another thermometer records this.
• Plants - a small money tree and lucky bamboo
• Placement - in my room, on a desk, not near anything that directly goes into the cage, a spot with good ventilation. a good distance from the floor
• Location - north america, lower michigan

Current Problem - not eating or drinking, sleeping during the day and not looking good at all

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[jpm995]

When you visit the vet i would guess you should bring a stool sample to check for parasites. Sadly buying chams from pet stores is a crapshoot, they usually have terrible care procedures. Reputable breeders are a better choice.

 

[salmonsalmon]

I'm no expert but i think he has mdb a bone disease that's very serious. His legs look like their weird angles. There's more knowledgeable experts on here that can confirm. In any case a herp qualified vet visit would be necessary the sooner the better. Just his symptoms are very troubling and they can go downhill fast. Good luck with your cham.

eek, is mdb a birth defect or something he could’ve developed? i’m looking into seeing any get options, he seems to look rough for one second but then has his eyes open and moves around a bit, i know you said you aren’t an expert but just throwing it out there, thank you again

 

[ERKleRose]

eek, is mdb a birth defect or something he could’ve developed? i’m looking into seeing any get options, he seems to look rough for one second but then has his eyes open and moves around a bit, i know you said you aren’t an expert but just throwing it out there, thank you again

Metabolic bone disease is something they develop, and considering his lighting and supplements, he definitely has it. I wasn’t sure at first if it was just loose skin or mbd, too, but sadly @jpm995 is correct, as your husbandry form confirms it. How soon can you get into the vet I linked? Like @jpm995 and I have both said, bring a poop less than 24 hours old with you if you can (you can store it in the fridge). If there’s no fresh poop, you can drop one off as soon as he does poop. Here’s some links about mbd:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-like-how-it-happens-and-how-to-fix-it.95071/
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-medical-metabolic-bone-disease/
http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2016/12/a-quick-guide-to-metabolic-bone-disease.html
https://www.madcham.de/en/metabolic-bone-disease/

If you give me a few minutes, I can go through your husbandry form

 

[salmonsalmon]

Metabolic bone disease is something they develop, and considering his lighting and supplements, he definitely has it. I wasn’t sure at first if it was just loose skin or mbd, too, but sadly @jpm995 is correct, as your husbandry form confirms it. How soon can you get into the vet I linked? Like @jpm995 and I have both said, bring a poop less than 24 hours old with you if you can (you can store it in the fridge). If there’s no fresh poop, you can drop one off as soon as he does poop. Here’s some links about mbd:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-like-how-it-happens-and-how-to-fix-it.95071/
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-medical-metabolic-bone-disease/
http://www.muchadoaboutchameleons.com/2016/12/a-quick-guide-to-metabolic-bone-disease.html
https://www.madcham.de/en/metabolic-bone-disease/

If you give me a few minutes, I can go through your husbandry form

i’ll do my best to get him in, but it’s hard traveling to work and the vet in the same day. i’ve never been so worried, do you think he’ll have a chance at recovery at all? i’ll do my best to get him in as soon as possible

 

[jannb]

Yes, he can recover with proper treatment, but his bones will always be a little curved.

MBD Info

https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-like-how-it-happens-and-how-to-fix-it.95071/

Reptile vets in Michigan

Michigan​

Ann Arbor — Animal Kingdom Veterinary Hospital
Ann Arbor — City Pets Veterinary Clinic
Baltimore — Anchor Bay Veterinary Center
Berrien Springs — Two by Two Animal Hospital
Birmingham — Birmingham Veterinary Clinic
Canton Township — Canton Center Animal Hospital (Dr. Hagewood & Dr. Gronowski)
Clinton Charter Township — Parkway Small Animal and Exotic Hospital
Williamston — Cedar Creek Veterinary Clinic

 

[jpm995]

MBD is usually caused by a lack of uvb light [either natural sunlight or specific uvb lights specified for tropical environments] or a lack of vitamin d. They get this by their feeders and supplemental dusting of the feeders. Again i'm no expert but others on here can give you proper supplement schedules for veiled chams. Chams have weird bodies but if you notice their limbs grabbing branches at strange angles it's usually mbd. You need to add uvb lighting but the vet is still necessary, he may need calcium injections or other meds. Edit to add if their eating there's usually hope. The vet visit is imperative as their small fragile animals and won't last long like this.

 

[ERKleRose]

i’ll do my best to get him in, but it’s hard traveling to work and the vet in the same day. i’ve never been so worried, do you think he’ll have a chance at recovery at all? i’ll do my best to get him in as soon as possible

He has a better and better chance of a fuller recovery the sooner he gets in. Could you get him in today? Thank you for wanting to get him in!

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, male, juvenile. in my care since baby from petstore How long have you had him (time wise)?
• Handling - not often, only taken out to get used to people and not hiss
• Feeding - adult crickets, 36 are purchased weekly and put into his cage. 7 then refill when he eats them Are the crickets wider than the space between his eyes? Do you feed the crickets anything before the they’re fed off (this is called gutloading, it’s very important feeders are well fed, as it passes the nutrition on to the chameleon)? Going forward, you’ll want to keep crickets in a separate bin (you can look on here for bug bin ideas, crickets need space and good ventilation), keep them well fed and hydrated, and only put any crickets in the cage if they’re being fed that day. You’ll want to remove any uneaten crickets that same day. If your crickets are purchased from a pet store, there is a higher chance of parasites, as well. The only place I recommend getting crickets from is Ghann’s Crickets https://www.ghann.com/ . You’ll want to add more variety as well, the site sponsors are great places to get feeders from online! https://www.chameleonforums.com/sponsors/?tag=food I’ve attached feeder and gutload charts below, you’ll want to follow them
• Supplements - zoo med repti-calcium with d3, every 2 weeks How do you give the supplement? Sadly, this is only partially right, the frequency is correct, but you’re missing plain calcium and a multivitamin. You need to get a phosphorus-free calcium without D3 to use every feeding (like Zoo Med Repti Calcium Without D3, Repashy SuperCal NoD, Arcadia EarthPro-A, or Arcadia EarthPro-Ca). I’d toss the calcium with D3 and replace it with a combination multivitamin and D3. I’d get Repashy CalciumPlus LoD (the one with a jacksons chameleon on the label). Use it once every two weeks, with all other feedings using calcium without D3
• Watering - a bowl (he does drink from it, have seen) and misting with fogger everytime humidity drops (fogger only at night) How often do you clean the water bowl, replace the water, and what type of water do you use? You’ll want to get a mister to mist his enclosure around lights on and lights off (at least 2 minutes long each time). Home improvement store pressure pump chemical sprayers (new and unused) are cheap and work great! Is your fogger cool mist or warm mist, and how often do you clean it and the tubing? You only want to use a fogger in the middle of the night, and only if nighttime temperatures are low enough (preferably 65*F or lower)
• Fecal Description - brown, not had one in some time though, never been tested either Bring one with you to the vet or drop one off as soon as he poops if there’s not one less than 24 hours old when you take him to the vet. If there is one, store it in a baggie or container in the fridge until it’s time to leave for the vet. You’ll want to drop off the next two consecutive poops as well to make sure parasites are fully ruled out. He should have a lighter/white part to his poop, what color has that part been lately?
• History - no past health problems

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen, not sure the dimensions, alot of it was given to me by a friend Was there anything in the cage before Soren? If so, was the cage sanitized or disinfected before putting anything in? Soren will most likely need a hospital bin. It’s a plastic bin/container with a towel at the bottom and a few low lying branches/vines so if he falls, it’s cushioned and not a far drop (less likely to be injured), along with a plant or two to hide behind and drink from. You’ll put his lights far enough away to not burn or overexpose him and at the appropriate distances (I’ll get into that below). You’ll most likely want to put a screen cover over the top, definitely if he can climb out and/or if you have other pets. Also, the Exo Terra vines he has in his cage are dangerous. They shed debris that can get caught in his eyes and cause eye problems
• Lighting - using zoo med repti basking spot lamp (75w) and aqua culture daylight bulb (75w) for lighting. schedule is lights on at 6AM then off at 10PM He needs a linear UVB bulb ASAP! The preferred is the Arcadia Pro T5 kit with a 6% bulb (Arcadia brand T5 High Output fixture with a 6% Arcadia linear T5 UVB bulb), but if a pet store local to you has a T5 High Ouput fixture and a linear T5 Zoo Med ReptiSun 5.0 bulb, get that. If they don’t, order the Arcadia kit online. Distances will differ between his regular cage and his hospital bin. For his regular cage, you’ll want the distance from UVB bulb to basking branch/vines to be 8-9”. His hospital bin depends on if he has a lid, and if he does, what type of screen it is. If you can take him outside to get natural UVB, that’d be great! How far away is his heat bulb from his basking branch? You want it to be a minimum of 9”+ away. Keeping his light schedule closer to 12 hours on, 12 hours off is better.
• Temperature - i have a temperature thermometers in cage, it gets up to about 80° on a cool day and 91° on a hot day. around 77° at the bottom of the cage. What type of thermometer do you have? 91*F is far too hot! His basking spot (measured with a digital thermometer with a probe, with the probe placed where the top of his back is when he’s on his basking branch) should be between 80-85*F. What are his nighttime temperatures?
• Humidity - average is 30° when not misted and 70° when misted, another thermometer records this. That’s good. Is your thermometer (called a hygrometer when measuring humidity) digital or analog? What are his nighttime humidity levels?
• Plants - a small money tree and lucky bamboo You’ll want to replace his fake plants with veiled safe ones (the veiled tested ones from this link https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ ). Clean them (wash the entire plant, roots and all, with Dawn dish soap or Physan, and rinse very, very, very well), repot them in organic soil, and cover the soil with stones too big for Soren to eat.
• Placement - in my room, on a desk, not near anything that directly goes into the cage, a spot with good ventilation. a good distance from the floor
• Location - north america, lower michigan

Current Problem - not eating or drinking, sleeping during the day and not looking good at all

Here’s some more helpful links:
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-husbandry-program-getting-started-with-chameleons/
https://chameleonacademy.com/veiled-chameleon-care/

 

[kinyonga]

If you want your chameleon to have a chance, you need to act fast. Even then, I’m not sure it will be soon enough.

The issues need to be resolved and then correct husbandry needs to be followed to keep it healthy. Priority right now is to see a good exotics chameleon vet to give him liquid calcium gluconate and other care to get him healthy.

Once he’s back in track you need to make sure the husbandry is spot on and stays that way to keep the issues from returning.

I don’t have time right now to give more details…but I’m sure someone will pipe up in the meantime.