Chachi
Established Member
Didnt realize you and meru were already on! Lol. I hope her little guys make it, but you know.......
jackson still born babies
- Thread starter Duma
- Start date
Chachi
Established Member
Virgil1972
Avid Member
I am sorry to hear this. At least you did what you could.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
So sorry. Hope the other one turns around.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm sorry this was your introduction to breeding chameleons. I understand how upset you are. Baby chameleons hit all the nurturing hot buttons--big heads and eyes plus they have a helpless, quavering way about them that is so enduring. And then there is that you want everything in your care to thrive and you feel as if you failed them. You didn't fail them. I know my words won't make your guilt go away, but just keep repeating them. You didn't fail them. I can't take away the pain of your grief but I hope I can give you some comfort that there wasn't a lot you or anyone else could do for them even the best reptile vet in the world. They are just too tiny--they have to decide to live.
You mentioned you bought your female about two weeks ago. Did you know she was gravid? Since she was gravid when you bought her, my feeling is she was a wild caught. That right there is a huge warning flag for big problems with the babies. Sometimes in times of stress, mothers will give birth early. Maybe that happened. If they were premature, their chance of survival goes down. Even if she were not a wild caught, changing homes is incredibly stressful for the female, and indirectly for the babies she is carrying.
Weak babies at hatch/birth have much poorer outcomes than vigorous strong babies. It would be interesting to know from breeders how many times their weak-at-hatch babies actually survived. When they are so weak and little, there isn't a lot you can do other than give them supportive care. Your female produced three dead babies and two weak ones. Every single baby was in trouble. There was a big problem for that whole clutch before she delivered them. It is possible that the environment, particularly the temperatures, that you gave the female in the two weeks you had her before she delivered caused the problem but to be honest, I don't think two weeks of slightly too high temps on a normal, healthy clutch would kill all five but that is my layman's guess and I have nothing to back that up other than gut feeling.
I don't know what your temperatures were, but temperatures that are off causes a lot of problems for incubating eggs so I would think too high temps would cause problems for live bearers as well. I don't know where you bought her from, but they might have been keeping her in temperatures that were too high in the day and especially too high at night. By the way, a Jacksons doesn't actually give birth to live babies--they lay thin shelled eggs that hatch at birth. There's a difference.
I don't know what your knowledge or experience with Jacksons is but really learn what they need. Look at where they come from and study the climate and seasons of their native lands. Find out which side of the mountains they are more common on because one side gets more rain than the other. Take this opportunity to really learn the species. Learn what time of the year they usually have babies in their native land and then look at the climate there at that time of the year.
Sorry for your loss.
You mentioned you bought your female about two weeks ago. Did you know she was gravid? Since she was gravid when you bought her, my feeling is she was a wild caught. That right there is a huge warning flag for big problems with the babies. Sometimes in times of stress, mothers will give birth early. Maybe that happened. If they were premature, their chance of survival goes down. Even if she were not a wild caught, changing homes is incredibly stressful for the female, and indirectly for the babies she is carrying.
Weak babies at hatch/birth have much poorer outcomes than vigorous strong babies. It would be interesting to know from breeders how many times their weak-at-hatch babies actually survived. When they are so weak and little, there isn't a lot you can do other than give them supportive care. Your female produced three dead babies and two weak ones. Every single baby was in trouble. There was a big problem for that whole clutch before she delivered them. It is possible that the environment, particularly the temperatures, that you gave the female in the two weeks you had her before she delivered caused the problem but to be honest, I don't think two weeks of slightly too high temps on a normal, healthy clutch would kill all five but that is my layman's guess and I have nothing to back that up other than gut feeling.
I don't know what your temperatures were, but temperatures that are off causes a lot of problems for incubating eggs so I would think too high temps would cause problems for live bearers as well. I don't know where you bought her from, but they might have been keeping her in temperatures that were too high in the day and especially too high at night. By the way, a Jacksons doesn't actually give birth to live babies--they lay thin shelled eggs that hatch at birth. There's a difference.
I don't know what your knowledge or experience with Jacksons is but really learn what they need. Look at where they come from and study the climate and seasons of their native lands. Find out which side of the mountains they are more common on because one side gets more rain than the other. Take this opportunity to really learn the species. Learn what time of the year they usually have babies in their native land and then look at the climate there at that time of the year.
Sorry for your loss.
Chachi
Established Member
Im so s
Also, i was thinking, do these mt meru type of jacksons store sperm? If so, thes babies could be the leftovers. Most people dont really realize that the stories about jacksons storing sperm and having a second (and rarely, a third) clutch of babies on one breeding, is not uncommon. I didnt know and it sounded so crazy i dismissed it out of my head. Six months after the first group, I came home and there they were in her cage w her. She had 3 yolks in bags, 1 stillborn and 4 little weak weak babies....just a thought. Someone on this forum told me that this second set is very often weak and have a very high mortality.
Duma
Member
@jajeanpierre she was wild caught. the importer sold her as gravid, but within a year she did not produce any babies for a year so when i bought her we thought it was just her coloring. 4 days before i noticed the stillborns, i added a mist king and another new plant. i noticed she started to hide when she usually was always easily seen. i feel like i did cause her too much stress.
im always extremely careful the basking temperature never gets above 81 degrees. i will do a lot more studying and research because i obviously didnt give her what she is looking for.
is there a way to tell if the babies are premature or just weak? it took them 1.5 days to open their eyes and i honestly feel like they died to dehydration/ starvation because they would not eat or drink. just my thought though.
your kind words mean a lot. thank you. i will do more research. i have been feeding her more because of the babies. how long should i continue to do this for>
im always extremely careful the basking temperature never gets above 81 degrees. i will do a lot more studying and research because i obviously didnt give her what she is looking for.
is there a way to tell if the babies are premature or just weak? it took them 1.5 days to open their eyes and i honestly feel like they died to dehydration/ starvation because they would not eat or drink. just my thought though.
your kind words mean a lot. thank you. i will do more research. i have been feeding her more because of the babies. how long should i continue to do this for>
MeruJack
Avid Member
Duma got her female from me. She was wild caught and she was sold to me as gravid. However, I had her for 11.5 months and she did not give birth and was never with a male during her year with me. Her coloring and size were always the same. I had no idea she was actually gravid after such a long time or I would not have sold her at that time. I feel terrible for Duma/Sarah to have had to go through this experience right after her introduction to Jackson's chameleons. She is an experienced and conscientious chameleon keeper. This Jackson is not her only chameleon. Prior to shipping this female, she asked lots of questions to make sure she got everything right before and after the chameleon arrived and even bought the same screen cage and decor to make the cage as similar to the one the female was used to at my home in order to make the transition as stressless as possible. Sarah did everything in her power to help the female (and then the surprise babies) thrive. I commend her. I have lost entire clutches of live babies until just recently when I drastically changed my neonate husbandry and am just now experiencing much success. I am currently raising 4 groups of babies (including one group born yesterday) from three different mothers but it took a long time to get to this point. Again, I commend Sarah for the heart and effort she has put into caring for this female and her little ones. YOU DID EVERYTHING OUT OF LOVE and you need to forgive yourself for the loss of these babies....IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT!
MeruJack
Avid Member
The babies that were born yesterday are the third for this female. She was WC and had 5 babies (& one stillborn) a few weeks after I received her. My husbandry at that time was not sufficient to keep them alive. Then February 20th (six months later) she game birth to six without the introduction of a male. This group just turned 5 months old last Wednesday. Then yesterday, 5 months & 4 days later, she had 7 live babies (& two stillborn; the first two born). The stories are true; they can give birth multiple times from one breeding.
jpowell86
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm sorry to see that they both died. There was literally nothing you could have done. I have seen this many times and it is no ones fault.
The most important thing is to make sure your female remains healthy. She may surprise you with more down the road. They are an interesting species.
The most important thing is to make sure your female remains healthy. She may surprise you with more down the road. They are an interesting species.
MeruJack
Avid Member
I anticipated her giving birth the last two times. I just thought she wouldn't give birth until sometime next month. She is tiny and when she is gravid, SHE LOOKS GRAVID. She also had stopped eating several days ago and seemed restless lately. Yesterday morning when I watered everyone (and fed the babies), she looked very dark but wasn't under her basking lamp....I left shortly thereafter and when I came home after church and lunch, I found she had given birth.
I didn't post any pictures yesterday out of respect for your loss but since you have asked me to do so I will tonight or tomorrow as I am headed out the door once again.
I hope you are beginning to feel better about the situation. Take care.
MeruJack
Avid Member
Yep! Once they have that first clutch, anything can happen! Some will continue to present you with babies every six months or so, others won't. I have one female Mt. Meru that gave me 5 surprise babies 20 months ago. Since then she "gave birth" to about 9 "slugs" but other than that she has not produced any more babies and SHE HAS MATED with one of my males! So, you never know with these incredible little critters!
The best advice I can give is to (1) really get to know your female(s) so you have a better chance of noticing when she is gravid and when she is close to giving birth and (2) read everything you can about raising montane babies just in case!!!!
Chachi
Established Member
Wow! 3x! I thought mine was a lot. Three different clutches. Thats phenomenal.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Rest assured, they didn't die of dehydration or starvation as long as you had the humidity high enough and it sounds like you did. They can live a LONG time without eating and probably drinking because they draw a very large amount of egg yolk into their bellies before they hatch. No, something was wrong with that clutch before they were born.
I've only had two chameleons deliver live babies, so I have zip experience with live bearers. Both were very recent wild caughts and one I barely looked in the cage (it was high on a shelf) so I didn't see her behavior before she delivered, just found all the babies born. The other was in a place I saw more easily and I noticed she was quite agitated around the birth. I know my egg layers often are a little distressed as they get ready to lay their eggs. Her hiding and the arrival of the MistKing might have only been a coincidence. She might have been hiding as she prepared for birth.
I don't think you will ever find out why that clutch all died. The three still births and two weak babies tells you they have a problem right off the bat. Babies should come out healty and vigorous. Most babies die when they are weak and those were born weak. They were probably doomed no matter who had them. If your temps weren't really far off and the keeper who had her before didn't have temps really far off, it was really out of your control.
I do believe that they can stop their development. I would have to research it again to be accurate and I just don't have time tonight. From what MeruJack wrote, she appeared to be gravid for about a year. I think that is entirely possible. If she was gravid for so long, I would expect the babies to be weak.
I know it doesn't make you feel better to have people say there was nothing you could have done, but it really is the truth. I'm really sorry this was your introduction to having babies because they should be fun.
