Jackson Subspecies info and Photos

[coldbloodedAL]

do you have some proof that they are more than likely incompatibility subspecies?

if you google it up or search here about jacksoniis x breed you will see that the jacksonii jacksonii can cross breed with the xant.

I dont need to. Im not the one making some claim, based on the color that shows in 90% of xantholophus regardless of origin... If you have no other "evidence" other than that I think we can leave this discussion where it sits...

Show me such threads that prove this?

For the record I am not debating the cross breeding, it certainly is not impossible. But your claim of a population being tainted

 

[leedragon]

Might as well add these to the list of questions, Does anyone know how jacksons got to where they got too? Like to Hawaii or places in California, etc.
Kindly asking for stuff to read
Growing up I really only heard of them being in places in Ca. but never herping those spots myself. In Hi. there has been tons of proof by photos. How long have they been there now? Have tj xanth been there for more then 20 years?

what I know of the jacksoniis in hawaii is that some importer put a grupp of sick /diyng jacksoniis on his backyard with the hope they would get better and by that way they got in the wild, if someone knows better be free to correct me.

 

[leedragon]

I dont need to. Im not the one making some claim, based on the color that shows in 90% of xantholophus regardless of origin... If you have no other "evidence" other than that I think we can leave this discussion where it sits...

Show me such threads that prove this?

you know, I have really just one word for you and starts with f.

I don´t put in mind every name of who wrote what or the day it was wrote when I read something, what I keep in mind is what the contexr was about.

BUT https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-c-gracilis-x-calyptratus-hybrid-71434/

here is Christ mentioning the jacksonii x xhanto cross breding

 

[leedragon]

and btw, cross breeding is common event in nature by species that are close related and live in the same are, well that is how I have understood that, if I am wrong someone please correct me.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Whoa there buddy, again i did not say the cross was impossible...

It was your claim that an entire population has been hybridized by a group of j jacksonii...
When the xanths from Hawaii look the same as from Africa?

 

[Miss Lily]

I didn't mean to start any arguments, lol! I purely thought it would be a useful tool to have pics and descriptions of all 3 subspecies in one place to help people that are new to Jacksons.

 

[leedragon]

sorry, some times I need to work on my temperment, but, not they are not, they have a small genetic pool so there is some difference, and what I know is the the whole population started from a small group which had some jacksonii jacksonii which had some jacksonii jacksonii specimen/blood, I have seen pictures of xant.s females with one horn, that's the resemble of the passive genes from the jacksonii jacksonii witch is been brought up by the inevitable inbreeding in the hawaii population

 

[leedragon]

I didn't mean to start any arguments, lol! I purely thought it would be a useful tool to have pics and descriptions of all 3 subspecies in one place to help people that are new to Jacksons.

yeah sorry about that, good thread due

 

[Chris Anderson]

Just to set the record straight, Trioceros jacksonii jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus are known to intergrade and hybridize in the wild, as discussed in the original description of T. j. xantholophus (Eason et al., 1988). That said, the original description describes female T. j. xantholophus "with no, one, or three horns which if present are greatly reduced." Thus, the suggestion that Hawaiian females exhibiting a reduced rostral horn indicates a history of hybridization with the nominate subspecies is false.

I've never heard any support for the notion that the Hawaiian T. jacksonii population are hybrids between T. j. jacksonii and T. j. xantholophus, and in fact everything I've ever heard and read suggests that they are from pure T. j. xantholophus founders. There are variations in the coloration and pattern between Kenyan and Hawaiian T. j. xantholophus populations, but this is believed to be an effect of different selection pressure and the genetic bottleneck, not any apparent hybridization.

Chris

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Thanks Chris, glad to have your input here!

So now my question to you is... What differences do we see in these hybrids?

By chance do you have a photo of any?

 

[jojothefirst]

jeez, coldblooded has every right to simply ask where you are getting this infomation from. Its sweeping unfounded statements like the one
you have made that confuse and misinform people. If its your opinion then state it that way and not as fact.

you know, I have really just one word for you and starts with f.

I don´t put in mind every name of who wrote what or the day it was wrote when I read something, what I keep in mind is what the contexr was about.

BUT https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-c-gracilis-x-calyptratus-hybrid-71434/

here is Christ mentioning the jacksonii x xhanto cross breding

 

[jojothefirst]

Rather than me start a new thread, can anyone tell me when they have or would breed there jacksons? more specificly , jacksonii jacksonii. As with most things there are different opinions but a general suggestion is between 9-12 months. does this seem right I your opinions?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Might as well add these to the list of questions, Does anyone know how jacksons got to where they got too? Like to Hawaii or places in California, etc.
Kindly asking for stuff to read
Growing up I really only heard of them being in places in Ca. but never herping those spots myself. In Hi. there has been tons of proof by photos. How long have they been there now? Have tj xanth been there for more then 20 years?

From 'CRUISE FORAGING OF INVASIVE CHAMELEON (CHAMAELEO JACKSONII XANTHOLOPHUS) IN HAWAI’I': Jackson’s chameleon, Chameleo jacksonii xantholophus (Fig. 1), was originally introduced into Hawai’i in 1972 from Mt. Kenya, Kenya, as a result of the pet trade. This species has since reached the islands of Oahu, Maui, Hawai’i, and Kauai and is typically found in disturbed habitats (Eason et al., 1988; McKeown, 1991; Waring, 1997).

The story I've heard on several occasions is that they were imported (legally I believe) for the pet trade, and because fresh wild caught chams often look so poor the person who had them left them outside to freshen up and gain some strength since the habitat there is favorable. And then they escaped and were the start of the now wide spread population. So they've been there for 36 years and I don't think there is anything to support that they are not pure xanths, as Chris said. Limited genetics true, but pure xanths nonetheless.

To others in this thread (esp leedragon), clean it up or your posts may be deleted due to inappropriate language. Also let's please stick to the facts and not assumptions. Thanks.

 

[leedragon]

thanks for the clarification chris